OT: baseball rules violation results in forfeit

[29dad]

My son's 13U baseball team made it to the championship game of a USSSA Global World Series event yesterday (think regional national). They were being dominated 5-1 heading to the top of 6. My son led off the top of 6 by popping out. And then our coach called timeout, protested (had to pay a protest fee) and within a minute or two we were declared champs. The tournament has strict pitch count limits and apparently the pitcher on the other team who was brought in to start the 6th had already pitched his maximum. So by getting one out in this game, he exceeded his limit for the tourney and the penalty for that is immediate forfeit.

We had to bring in our 10th option at pitcher in the 4th because every other pitcher had already been used. So the argument is - we had to play by the rules, and they chose to ignore the rules or perhaps they just neglected to double check. In any event, I hate the way it ended. Why didn't we approach the other coach as the pitcher was warming up and tell him that we think he has already reached his max? Wouldn't that have been the "right" thing to do? Wouldn't that have been a great display of sportsmanship for the boys?

I know it's baseball not softball and there probaby isn't an apples to apples comparison, but I'm curious to see if you think our coach did the right thing. We did get an impressive trophy. So there's that. (yes, being sarcastic)

Anyway, I'm not going to lose too much sleep over it and have my son leave the team or anything like that. Reasonable people can disagree. And I definitely disagree with the decision.

 

[Sweet Lou]

I'm with you it seems a hollow victory. The filp side is your coach knows his rules and how to apply them you your advantage when needed. Maybe there is past bad blood between the 2 teams we don't know about.

 

[marriard]

I guarantee the opposing coach absolutely knew he had an ineligible pitcher coming in and was trying to get away with it. I wouldn't be surprised to find out your coaches had seen them try this before at another tournament and possibly get away with it. If this is the case then the victory becomes way less hollow than just catching them in a 'we caught you' moment.

We won a national championship bracket game because we knew two of the opposing players were 2 years too old (they had played against the older sisters of 3 of our players). It actually ended up 5 of their players were 'too old'. Their coach tried to claim he had no idea until it was revealed one of the players was his daughter.

 

[Sweet Lou]

I guarantee the opposing coach absolutely knew he had an ineligible pitcher coming in and was trying to get away with it. I wouldn't be surprised to find out your coaches had seen them try this before at another tournament and possibly get away with it. If this is the case then the victory becomes way less hollow than just catching them in a 'we caught you' moment.

We won a national championship bracket game because we knew two of the opposing players were 2 years too old (they had played against the older sisters of 3 of our players). It actually ended up 5 of their players were 'too old'. Their coach tried to claim he had no idea until it was revealed one of the players was his daughter.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that. Maybe some of both.

 

[Indiana]

My son also plays baseball - the pitch counts are very strict. It makes baseball tournaments tougher to navigate. A team that seems to be an easy mark during pool play becomes formidable during elimination play once they put in their top pitchers.

I can see the decision both ways. If it was a lower level, local tournament I might have approached the other coach, giving him the benefit of the doubt, assuming that he didn't know. Some tournaments break down the limits by outs, others consider a single out an entire inning, and limit the pitching that way so it can be confusing.

However, I would think that a team that makes it to a regional national has a coach who is well aware of the nuances of the pitch limits and is gambling that the other team isn't paying attention, especially if the counts for every pitcher are not easily accessible. So then it's a tough one. Do you approach the other coach and say "hey, I know what you're doing and I'm prepared to call you on it if you follow through," or do you protest once the violation has been made? Who knows - a pugnacious coach might dare you to call him on it, then you're the bad guy anyway. If it wasn't the championship, I may have protested and taken the victory. Given that it was the championship, I might have issued a warning to the other coach.

 

[CoogansBluff]

Why didn't we approach the other coach as the pitcher was warming up and tell him that we think he has already reached his max? Wouldn't that have been the "right" thing to do? Wouldn't that have been a great display of sportsmanship for the boys?

Yes.

Who was keeping the official pitch count?

 

[SoCal_Dad]

First - did your coach know the player wasn't eligible to pitch before he faced your son or was it confirmed during the AB?

It's similar to waiting to protest the other team batting out of order, however that penalty is not nearly as severe.

I'd be okay sitting on it if the other coach was a real jerk and/or we had reason to believe they were knowingly violating the rules. Otherwise, I'd prefer to say something to indicate we suspected the player wasn't eligible (e.g. I thought Joe had already maxed out...) so they had a chance to fix it in time. The championship would be more meaningful if it was won on the field and it sounds like your coach denied your team the opportunity to do it.

 

[canyonjoe]

Sure it's a hallow victory. Still you team made it to the finals so they earned being there.

As others have said, I think if the coach knew before the batter was up he should have said something, but I wouldn't hold
it against him and consider leaving the team. He was just using the rules. I know that if a team we are playing puts the wrong batter
up I don't say anything.

You can't say if they brought in there 7th pitcher instead of the one they did that you wouldn't have won, but I seriously doubt when your kids are 40 sitting around talking about the old days that they'll be all excited telling their kids how they won the tournament on a protest.

 

[29dad]

Thanks for the comments. I agree most with this one as it captures my feelings exactly:

The championship would be more meaningful if it was won on the field and it sounds like your coach denied your team the opportunity to do it.

The other team had two star pitchers (identical twins). The first one pitched the first 5 innings and was all but unhittable (we scored our run on a walk and a couple of errors). We knew he had to come out of the game after 5. When the twin brother came in to start the 6th, I didn't think anything of it, but our team manager kept all the stats and he sits right next to the coach, so clearly we knew as that kid was warming up that if he recorded an out, the championship would be ours.

One little caveat. Almost the second our coach came out and started talking to the ump, I overheard one of the other team's parents say "we just f---ing lost," which leads me to believe that they knew. Like I said, we had to pitch our second baseman who was literally our 10th best pitcher on a 12 kid roster. So by that point they may have been down to their 10th best pitcher as well, and they only had a roster of 10. So maybe they were trying to be sneaky? I don't know. Even if they were (trying to be sneaky), I still don't like the way it went down, but it is in the past and I will probably just bite my tongue.

 

[GunnerShotgun]

If the pitch count rule forces you to bring in your 10th pitcher, you aren't playing the game right. Do all 10 go to pitching lessons?

I understand the rule but would love to read the research (facts) behind it. Just looking at the rash of arm injuries in MLB it doesn't seem to be working (anecdotal, just my observation).