Gorilla Gold

[The Man In Blue]

I just got told recently about GG being up to the umpire's discretion in college. That has to be the absolute dumbest thing I ever heard of. I didn't believe it. Then someone sent it to me in print.

Gorilla Gold used to post on their website all the organizations and alphabet soups (USA, PGF, NSA, ISC, USSSA, etc) that allow GG to be used. I'm pretty sure ASA/USA has it in their rulebook, or they did at one point.

I've wondered about why GG was legal but rock rosin was still illegal. Neither one discolor the ball. Pine Tar, firm grip, and other substances that aren't legal will turn the ball black when it's transferred from fingers. And it makes no sense to allow GG but not rock rosin.

I have told the story before about "knowing someone" who would cut open the powder rosin baggie, pour it out, dump rock rosin in the empty powder rosin bag, re-sew it and presto... nobody knew. Truth be told, none of the players would really care. Umpires seemed to care more than the players did.

It is no different than a list of bats that are legal. Just because my bat's name is on that list, doesn't mean my bat is legal.

The product itself is neither legal nor illegal ... the affect it has on the ball is what matters. That is why it is up to the umpire. The makes drying agents legal. Gorilla Gold is technically not a drying agent.

Of course Gorilla Gold is going to say things like that. They want to sell product. I think I am going to trust the person who actually puts out the rulebook over the person trying to sell me something.

It is very easy to tell the difference between rock resin and powder rosin. Or is that rock rosin and powder resin? Grammatically it is difficult, but the actual product is easy, even if you switch the bag.

I don't proclaim to be a chemist or a physicist ... I only know what I've been taught. It may all be bunk.

Maybe just rub a little jalapeno inside your nose ...

 

[Hillhouse]

It is no different than a list of bats that are legal. Just because my bat's name is on that list, doesn't mean my bat is legal.

The product itself is neither legal nor illegal ... the affect it has on the ball is what matters. That is why it is up to the umpire. The makes drying agents legal. Gorilla Gold is technically not a drying agent.

Of course Gorilla Gold is going to say things like that. They want to sell product. I think I am going to trust the person who actually puts out the rulebook over the person trying to sell me something.

It is very easy to tell the difference between rock resin and powder rosin. Or is that rock rosin and powder resin? Grammatically it is difficult, but the actual product is easy, even if you switch the bag.

I don't proclaim to be a chemist or a physicist ... I only know what I've been taught. It may all be bunk.

Maybe just rub a little jalapeno inside your nose ...

TMIB, you lost me on the first one. How can your bat not be legal if it's on a list of legally approved bats?

I don't disagree that many companies aren't above telling you something is legal when it's not. It seems to me, although I can't remember how or where I saw it, that ASA/USA did make GG legal to use. Now that doesn't automatically mean it will be legal in other places: USSSA, PGF, etc. but I seem to remember seeing it legal. I did a quick google search right now and it had an article saying how NCAA followed USA softball by allowing GG. 15 seconds later I realized the article was on GG's website so we're back to square one about it's legality.

I'll bow to TMIB's insight here because he's more in touch with the rulebook folks than I am. No question about it. However, I have pitched in the ASA/USA Men's Major National Championship several times where the product was given to teams at the manager meetings by USA officials, tournament organizers, etc. . Call me crazy but, I'd think that would be a good indicator of it's legality. I can't think of a reason they'd do that unless they had legalized it.

Re: rock rosin vs. powder rosin... TMIB, are you telling me that if you saw a pitcher walk out to the circle and throw down the bag that looks like powder rosin, that you're not going to automatically assume it's powder rosin in there? I cannot even begin to count the number of games I've pitched, where I've used a rosin bag and it was never inspected. Again, this includes the Men's Major National, and even the championship games of the National championship where only "the best of the best" umpires are on the field. Games where they are looking for any and every infraction because they are being graded by a superior on their performance. So, can you tell the difference between the 2 when you see them side by side? Absolutely. But, I'll have to push back a little if you think anyone notices that or would assume someone put Rock Rosin in the powder bag.

At the men's major level, nobody cares if the pitcher is crow hopping. Nobody cares if he's using a foreign substance. Nobody cares if he lands outside the width of the rubber. Hell, their pitcher is probably doing all the same things!!! The only time I have ever experienced an umpire checking my glove or hat, etc. during a game is when a lower level team would enter a major level tournament. Those teams would often cry and complain about any of the above. The good umpires will just have a quiet word with me (or any pitcher) and ask us not to make things obvious. Like most great hitters, umpires want the pitcher to have control of the ball as much as possible too!!! An 80+ mph riseball hurts whether the person has a helmet (hitter) or a mask (umpire) on.

No need for the jalapeno nose trick in those scenarios. We'd just transfer the sticky stuff from my.. I mean the pitcher's glove... onto the catcher's shin guards. He'd then just touch the ball to his shin guard before throwing it back to me, I mean the pitcher. Then nobody's the wiser!! lol

 

[The Man In Blue]

Like I said, I don't really know anything about the actual products themselves, just what they directed us with in clinics. So for that regard, I won't proclaim to be an expert. I can just share what I was taught.

You're looking past the obvious on the bat analogy. Just because the Double-Shaken Martini XXL Spectre Bam-Bam Deluxe (now available in hot pink or Batman Black) is listed on a legal bat registry does not make the specific bat in your hand legal. The bat could be altered, damaged, etc. in which case it isn't legal.

I believe that is why you won't find anything in the rulebook that says "Monkey Magic towels are legal." It isn't about the product itself, it's about the effect it has. If the rule said Monkey Magic towels are legal, I'll just load up another substance on this towel that says Monkey Magic on it. The NCAA interpretation (not a rule) is based on the idea that it isn't expressly illegal, so it is legal as long as there is no substance transferring to the ball. There is a questionable part since the rule specifically talks about drying agents and Gorilla Gold is not a drying agent. Thus, they dropped back to "does it leave anything on the ball?" No? OK.

I could get onto a rant about viewing "interpretations" as rules, but I won't. Essentially the interpretation that said the product was legal in NCAA (though the rule does not). As for USA, I believe as long as you pay them a cut or royalties, you can eventually get just about anything legalized. (Seriously, a bat weight has to be USA approved?)

I have no desire to EVER work men's softball. I have refused several asks to do so. I am not in-tune with that game and all the shenanigans, but I've known enough players to know I don't care to be. Too much "trying to be smarter than the game" for me.

Powder vs. rock ... powder poofs. Rock doesn't. Rocks bang together, powder doesn't. Powder does not transfer to the ball. Rock tackiness will. Checking the bag? We were instructed to in clinic. Will we? Eh. At the high school and below levels, we are handling the game balls often enough that we can monitor them for substances on them.

 

[MightyMO]

I'm confused on the powder vs. rock rosin situation. DD never used it so I never looked into it for softball. DS is now pitching (baseball) and he uses it. I have noticed that you can buy a bag of rock rosin just like a back of powder rosin. The rock rosin bags even say to crush it in the bag if you want powder rosin. If rock rosin is illegal in softball but powder is not, would crushing the rock rosin make it legal?

 

[The Man In Blue]

I'm confused on the powder vs. rock rosin situation. DD never used it so I never looked into it for softball. DS is now pitching (baseball) and he uses it. I have noticed that you can buy a bag of rock rosin just like a back of powder rosin. The rock rosin bags even say to crush it in the bag if you want powder rosin. If rock rosin is illegal in softball but powder is not, would crushing the rock rosin make it legal?

You got me on that one. I have a thought, but I don't want to speak out of turn.

Here is what I was taught to use to tell the difference:

Powder is powder. The particles are (essentially) uniform in size and shape. There are no "solid" lumps in the bag or anything that would poke you or could be felt individually. Powder "poofs" when you toss it or throw it on the ground, rock does not.

Again, I am not a chemist or a physicist, so I can not attest to the scientific validity. I know no more about this than the minutiae of what makes a legal bat become illegal/damaged. I know I paid some money to a guy at an organization with some letters in its name, and this is what they instructed us to look for in their game.

 

[wheresmycar]

would crushing the rock rosin make it legal?

No.

Powdered rosin is super fine, like baby powder. You will never be able to crush rock rosin enough to be "powdered".

The dead giveaway a rosin bag is full or rock rosin is the lack of a white cloud of dust when used. Powdered rosin will "poof" a white cloud of dust when dropped on the ground or tossed up and down in the pitchers hand. No poof, no powder.

Rock rosin is used by batters, where there is no restriction about material transferring to the bat handle to make it sticky.

Image below of powdered rosin in MLB game.



I'm surprised how much confusion there is on this subject, even with umpires and coaches. Last summer at a large tournament in FL, we were playing in a light rain shower. I immediately notice the other pitcher is using a rock rosin bag in the circle. After the first inning, I walk over and mention it to our coach, who had not noticed. It was almost another inning before our coach finally called time, and asked ump to inspect the bag. It was rock rosin, and was removed from the game.

 

[FlSoftball]

True powdered rosin will not "poof" once it is raining and will start to clump. My DD uses 100% powder rosin(not he crap you get at dicks) and with high Florida humidity and an occasional shower it will clump and feel like rock rosin in short order and some umps have tried to say it is rock rosin. She always has the bag it comes in but also has a backup unopened just in case. Had a gorilla gold also but the dog ate it so waiting on a new one.


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[Bernie]

You will never be able to crush rock rosin enough to be "powdered".

That's incorrect. Five minutes or less inside a sock hitting it with a hammer on a hard surface.

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[uncdrew]

Off to amazon to buy gorilla gold and rock rosin.

 

[El Oso]

Last summer at a large tournament in FL, we were playing in a light rain shower. I immediately notice the other pitcher is using a rock rosin bag in the circle. After the first inning, I walk over and mention it to our coach, who had not noticed.

What? You actually did this??? Wow!