Throwing Balls

[Rolling Hard]

At some point a catcher putting a Target/glove where the intended pitch location is going to be will give away details to help the batter. Particularly when coaches or dug out see's catcher-presenting location/target with their glove then can call out pitch location for the batter.

Pitchers can use other visual cues for their pitch location. As said earlier,
things like the catcher's shoulders or knees.

Hey RAD,
What's your take on the catcher having their glove facing the ground as pitch is delivered? It's becoming very common in baseball and now seen more in SEC college softball. I think it especially helpful with drop ball pitchers getting strikes called that are actually low in the zone. Very difficult for ump to determine if pitch was low because glove is moving up on every pitch. Maybe someone has some video.

 

[RADcatcher]

Hey RAD,
What's your take on the catcher having their glove facing the ground as pitch is delivered? It's becoming very common in baseball and now seen more in SEC college softball. I think it especially helpful with drop ball pitchers getting strikes called that are actually low in the zone. Very difficult for ump to determine if pitch was low because glove is moving up on every pitch. Maybe someone has some video.

Simple explanation
If the pitch is intended to be low and directly in front of the catcher it can be okay.
However when the pitch goes to outer
(to the sides) or upper locations then the catcher has to reach their whole arm more abruptly to try and get the pitch. That can be reaching away from the strike zone and creates a lot more extra movement that is unnecessary.
( even if the location they are reaching to is still framable it's a lot of extra unnecessary movement)
Umpires can see arm movement easily. It sends a signal the catcher is reacting to have to GO GET THE PITCH.

If the arm is strong out in front
We already have the opportunity to just rotate our arm (using Shoulder) our movement is much more subtle
and use our wrist to shave /frame pitches.
With our arm strong out in front we have the opportunity to cut off the angle of pitches that are going away from the strike zone easier. And shave/frame them for strikes. (Without the abrupt movement of having to jerk low arm and glove to the pitch)
( prefer having our arm out in front , muscles engaged in front)

Recently having conversations with several umpires, talking about catchers who are moving their entire arms trying to relocate pitches.
Specifically talking about their gloves starting in such a low place where their arms and glove are not ready for pitches and it is creating late reactions.
Of course this makes sense and will happen when players are ill prepared for reaction time and pitchers don't have control. Especially if catchers don't have their muscles engaged from their shoulder to their arm, limp wristed glove.

When people see more developed players (MLB) doing particular skill sets with highly developed pitchers. When people are watching pitchers with more control, like in college versus the not so much control of the majority of softball we talk about on dfp. Which is pitchers striving to have more control...
We should take into consideration the reality of what the majority catchers are dealing with. Because of this, Not having glove arm ready, add the quick reaction time to pitches, can cause a dilemma trying to receive a pitch that doesn't always go right where it's supposed to.

We should remember that catchers are also defensive players.
Everybody on the field should have our glove ready to be a defensive player.

* remember in fastpitch the pitch starts as a strike coming out of the pitcher's hand and generally will travel away from the strike zone.
100% ready every pitch of every game!

 

[Hillhouse]

I'm a little offended at your assumptions, but in general I understand where you're coming from.

However, what you're missing out on is the mind of a 13 year old girl, the dynamics of being the only freshman on the varsity team, and a coach who will bench you for not doing what she says.

Of course my DD knows how to pitch - that's why this thread exists - because she knows the pitch call is the wrong one (at times). She could call her own pitches easily and I think she'd do better than what this coach does, but that's not allowed. She's tried to address it twice and been shut down. I'm pretty proud of how she's handling it, quite honestly.

I'm sorry I offended you. Please know I was speaking in generalities not specifically about YOUR kid.

I'm not discounting the position she's in. I have a lot of empathy for pitchers like your daughter. And lets be clear, this problem is not one exclusive to HS softball. It happens in TB too. That is why I said that if you are going to let your catcher call the game, both she and the pitcher need to be taught how it's done. That's the rub. Whomever is teaching the battery to know what to throw and when might not have a clue too. My point is, whether the girls are being taught how to do it or if the calls come from the dugout, the players (pitchers and catchers) are still at the mercy of that coach's instruction. The difference is, if the girls are taught how to do it as I suggest, at least they are learning during the process. To me it's simply inexcusable that girls can make it to D1 softball level and not know the basics about pitch calling, what to look for, how to identify a trap the hitter might setting up to get the pitch they want, etc.

But the learning process of pitch calling is an ongoing thing. In no way am I saying the coach shouldn't be involved, the coach and/or pitching coach should be consulted after every inning. Talk about what is working, what isn't working. What did the last girl hit? Was it a good hit or a bad pitch? Talking about the line up and who's the one hitter that you will not let beat you (meaning if she comes up with runners in scoring position, you don't let that hitter beat you). etc. etc. etc.

@Rolling Hard and I seem to have a fundamental disagreement about this topic, which is fine. And lets be honest, us talking about it on this forum isn't going to change anything. Personally, I'd like to see it where the girls are taught how to do this. But again, I'm not saying to just throw them out there. Teaching the art of pitch calling should be done during simulated games, live hitting at practice, scrimmages, and ALWAYS with communication from the coaches. The knowledge I personally have about pitching, pitch calling, what to throw and when, etc. was done throughout my career as I had experienced catchers teaching me along the way. As a result, when a young catcher would be on my team (usually joining from the baseball world) I would have to teach them about pitch calling in softball. This involves not only talking about things during practices but talking in between innings and a lot of shake of calls during games.

I think the evidence for teaching the girls how to do this themselves speaks for itself when you hear all the parents and pitchers who say their coach doesn't know what he/she is doing. And I think it'd be a better system if the girls were allowed to learn for themselves. What happens to these girls if the pitch caller they rely on isn't on the team anymore or isn't at that particular game? Of course they have to listen to the next coach in line to give out the pitches, regardless if that person knows what they are doing are not too.

@uncdrew I sincerely wasn't trying to insult you. And I do understand your DD has to listen to this coach while she's part of the team, and I'm not suggesting mutiny here where they defy the coach. I also realize my wish that pitchers/catchers being taught how to do this is only a pipe dream. It won't happen. I don't envy her position, or yours.

The bottom line is, regardless of who's calling the pitches, the coach or catcher, every pitcher is still obligated to throw the right pitch at the right time. Even the world's best pitchers don't always do this. Never forget that as each pitch should be used to set up the next, hitters are also trying to set us up for the pitch they want too. And, yes absolutely, I've lost plenty of games from shaking off my catcher only get the pitch I wanted to be hit. It happens to all of us. This usually results in me having to buy the catcher a beer or 2 afterwards.

Boys are taught how to call their own games as they grow up, why can't girls?

 

[Hillhouse]

Simple explanation
If the pitch is intended to be low and directly in front of the catcher it can be okay.
However when the pitch goes to outer
(to the sides) or upper locations then the catcher has to reach their whole arm more abruptly to try and get the pitch. That can be reaching away from the strike zone and creates a lot more extra movement that is unnecessary.
( even if the location they are reaching to is still framable it's a lot of extra unnecessary movement)
Umpires can see arm movement easily. It sends a signal the catcher is reacting to have to GO GET THE PITCH.

If the arm is out in front
We already have the opportunity to just rotate our arm (using Shoulder) our movement is much more subtle
and use our wrist to shave /frame pitches.
With our arm out in front we have the opportunity to cut off the angle of pitches that are going away from the strike zone easier. And shave/frame them for strikes. (Without the abrupt movement of having to jerk low arm and glove to the pitch)
( prefer having our arm out in front , muscles engaged in front)

Recently having conversations with several umpires, talking about catchers who are moving their entire arms trying to relocate pitches.
Specifically talking about their gloves starting in such a low place where their arms and glove are not ready for pitches and it is creating late reactions.
Of course this makes sense and will happen when players are ill prepared for reaction time and pitchers don't have control. Especially if catchers don't have their muscles engaged from their shoulder to their arm, limp wristed glove.

When people see more developed players (MLB) doing particular skill sets. Especially when people are watching pitchers with more control versus the not so much control of the majority of softball we talk about on dfp.
Catcher Not having glove arm ready plus the quick reaction time to pitches, can cause a dilemma trying to receive a pitch that doesn't always go right where it's supposed to.

We should remember that catchers are also defensive players.
Everybody on the field should have our glove ready to be a defensive player.

* remember in fastpitch the pitch starts as a strike coming out of the pitcher's hand and generally will travel away from the strike zone.

well said and interesting read RAD. I would think the glove down thing would add problems for umpires. While we'd all like them to be robots who aren't distracted, the reality is they are human and can call good pitches as balls because they see too much movement from the catcher, even if it's within the strikezone. And umpires can also be fooled by the movement of pitches, and are often surprised by change ups just like the hitter is causing them to miss that call too. It happens. It's part of the game. But personally I would think the ump seeing the glove movement from the ground to a pitch even belt high (which should be a strike) will result in more missed pitches by the blue at that location. And if they only leave the glove down on dropballs, that would make the catcher somewhat easy to pick, especially for the on deck hitter to call pitches based off where the glove is. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, which is entirely possible!!!

 

[RADcatcher]

Teaching the art of pitch calling should be done during simulated games, live hitting at practice, scrimmages, and ALWAYS with communication from the coaches. The knowledge I personally have about pitching, pitch calling, what to throw and when, etc. was done throughout my career as I had experienced catchers teaching me along the way. As a result, when a young catcher would be on my team (usually joining from the baseball world) I would have to teach them about pitch calling in softball. This involves not only talking about things during practices but talking in between innings and a lot of shake of calls during games.

There is an excellent point within these comments Mr B wrote.
That he experienced the sharing of passing along of knowledge within the game. He experienced receiving teaching. And then passed it forward.

In more recent years , This in itself is a factor that on too many team/ coaching situations there is not enough Hands-On knowledge being shared.

Being behind the plate and working with pitchers seeing the nuances knowing the ebb and flow can change from day to day, even from the beginning of the game to the end of it. Has taught me a lot. Noticeably Is different than a person from the dugout calling pitches who may not routinely catch/watch the pitcher they're calling pitches for. Often times hasn't even seen them warm up before the game.

Colleges have a very *good eyes on their pitchers. Paying attention to their productivity and consistency. Along with pitch charting of other team's hitters. This creates a quality situation for pitchers.

 

[RADcatcher]

Would like to add that thankfully I do know of catchers at colleges, travel ball and High School, who are given the responsibility and enjoy the opportunity to call pitches for their games! The catchers and pitchers communicate together and the ones I know in college touch base with the coaches in between innings.

 

[Rolling Hard]

My kid's first pitching coach sent me this, and it helped me become a better coach calling pitches, but what it did for my kid was even better, as learned to "throw every pitch with a purpose" and make the most of what she has.

*note: the downside of this is that it increases the agony of watching the moron on the bucket who doesnt have a clue.

Amanda Freed: How to Set-up A Batter

I think the strategy of setting up a batter is becoming a lost art. There is a difference between mixing pitches and setting up a batter. When you set a batter up, you are actually setting the batter up to chase the pitch you want them to. If you set a batter up correctly, you can get them out on any pitch, even if it's their "favorite pitch."

If you are neither a pitcher or catcher, this may not seem like it applies to you, but I am going to tell you how I would analyze you before and during your at-bat.

Pitchers and catchers, what do you look for?

On Deck: What does her swing tell you?

1) Is it long and loopy? Slow hands?
-Think jam her inside and up. Chances are she cannot get her barrel around on time.
Be careful with change up and away pitches. It is easier for someone with slow hands to get her barrel on an outside pitch.

2) Does she swing on a high plane or a low plane (meaning, does her barrel stay level by her shoulders or drop down below her waist)?
-If it's on a high plane, keep the ball low, preferable low and in. Chances are she will have a difficult time dropping her barrel to hit the low inside hard.
You're goal is to get her to hit it off of her shin. Mean I know, but that's the game.

3) When she's getting ready to get into the box, does she look anxious and a little tense? Is she really fidgety?:
- If she is really high-strung getting into the box, she is probably pretty impatient. I would definitely try and throw her off balance with change ups. Either start her off with a change up or something tight in, make her pull it foul. Don't paint the black on this pitch, aim for her hands. She just may have enough adrenaline in her to take it over the fence if you hang it. A GOOD inside pitch thrown in the right situation is extremely difficult to hit hard and fair.

When she steps into the box, look for…

1) Foot positioning.
- Open stance: (front foot towards third if it's a righty, first for a lefty)
Chances are she is either having trouble keeping her front side in on the pitch, or she is protecting herself against the inside. Check to see if her body becomes closed at the time of the pitch. If she gets closed, JAM HER IN. If she gets the barrel on the ball she will most likely jam herself, or pull it foul.

Closed stance: (front foot towards the plate) I would live inside on her. She is most likely looking for the outside pitch and protecting herself from getting beat on it. Go down and in, up and in, and make her fist herself out to the shortstop. Just watch to make sure that she doesn't step in the bucket when she strides. But again, in this case, a good inside pitch will still be difficult for her to hit hard and fair.

2) Hand positioning:
- Low hands: Probably swings fairly level, but again, check on deck or warm-up swings.
Be careful with the flat plane pitches (screw and curve) unless they have some up and down movement. Will probably have better success on the rise ball as well.
- High hands: I'm guessing she's pretty loopy so I'm going to jam her tight to start off and find out what the plane of her swing looks like because it could really go either way. She may have a straight rise ball swing, or a long, looping drop ball swing.

3) Box positioning:
- Front of the box: If she's in the front, I think that means she anxious. She is trying to bring more pitches into her strike zone. I'd go with jamming her and working in the change up.
- Back of the box: She is either not seeing the ball well, or she is very patient and wants you to bring the ball into the strike zone. Work ahead of the batter (first pitch strike) and go with your best moving pitches.

There are so many other tips that you learn from watching and studying batters.
As I go through the pitches that I would likely throw in certain situations, it is important to remember that this doesn't mean that you abandon every other pitch and just stick to one or two. It just means that we've identified a "weakness" and we've got to expose it.

There are many situations where you learn to throw to the batter and not the plate. What I mean by this is if the batter is standing a fairly good distance off the plate, of course you automatically assume that she will have a difficult time reaching the outside pitch and is probably looking inside. What I am going to do is start her off outside and get a strike (hopefully?) Let's say she swings but looks pretty bad. The next pitch I am going to go right back at it, just a little further out and see if she'll bite. She leans in, but takes the ball off the outside corner. Now I've got her leaning to the outside. I know she doesn't like that pitch but I've got her thinking that I'm living on the out. She moves just a little closer to the plate, not much, and now I am throwing to her hands. Not to hit her obviously, but I'm throwing just below her hands through her belly button. I know she's off the plate and looking to protect the inside but I'm throwing to her, not the strike zone. She will do one of three things. She'll turn on it hard and pull it foul, she'll jam herself into an out, or I'll force her back off the plate a little more. Remember a good inside pitch is difficult to hit hard and fair. Good inside does not necessarily mean a good strike. Now, I go back out to finish her off. Sounds like fun, huh?

On the other hand. There are situations where you don't even need to waste time or pitches. You start a girl off low and in and she fouls it between her legs. Clearly she had a difficult time with that pitch so now you go with the same pitch, just a little further in and a little lower. This is not a waste pitch. You want her to see it as the same pitch. She takes a not so pretty cut over the top, again. Now she's frustrated and thinking, "gotta protect," so you go right back at it, a little lower and a little farther in, maybe almost in the dirt. If she doesn't go for it, you've definitely got her thinking, and have set her up for the out, or change up.

We joke out here that there is a 90/10 rule when it comes to listening. 10% of everything you hear is actually heard and processed. The other 90% just goes in one ear and out the other. So if you remember anything from this article, I want this to be your 10%. Every pitch you throw must serve a purpose. For example, if I know absolutely nothing about a batter as she steps into the box, I've got to use that first pitch to gather as much information about her as possible. I like to start with a good inside pitch or a change up. Remember how we define that good inside pitch, and I like to keep the change up low and away. That is how I am able to gather the most information. If you throw a pitch right down the middle, or even on the inside part of the black and the batter does nothing but watches it, what have you learned?
Throw every pitch with a purpose.

Set the batter up to hit, or miss, what you want. Guess what, sometimes it slips or you make a bad decision. Big deal. Learn from it but keep plugging along. Remember, these are all just suggestions. I know not everyone has "all the tools" but you can make the best possible situation out of what you have! Take control of your own game and you'll be more confident.

Amanda

ontheblack Posts: 2355Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 2:27 pm

 

[RADcatcher]

My kid's first pitching coach sent me this, and it helped me become a better coach calling pitches, but what it did for my kid was even better, as learned to "throw every pitch with a purpose" and make the most of what she has.

*note: the downside of this is that it increases the agony of watching the moron on the bucket who doesnt have a clue.

Amanda Freed: How to Set-up A Batter

I think the strategy of setting up a batter is becoming a lost art. There is a difference between mixing pitches and setting up a batter. When you set a batter up, you are actually setting the batter up to chase the pitch you want them to. If you set a batter up correctly, you can get them out on any pitch, even if it's their "favorite pitch."

If you are neither a pitcher or catcher, this may not seem like it applies to you, but I am going to tell you how I would analyze you before and during your at-bat.

Pitchers and catchers, what do you look for?

On Deck: What does her swing tell you?

1) Is it long and loopy? Slow hands?
-Think jam her inside and up. Chances are she cannot get her barrel around on time.
Be careful with change up and away pitches. It is easier for someone with slow hands to get her barrel on an outside pitch.

2) Does she swing on a high plane or a low plane (meaning, does her barrel stay level by her shoulders or drop down below her waist)?
-If it's on a high plane, keep the ball low, preferable low and in. Chances are she will have a difficult time dropping her barrel to hit the low inside hard.
You're goal is to get her to hit it off of her shin. Mean I know, but that's the game.

3) When she's getting ready to get into the box, does she look anxious and a little tense? Is she really fidgety?:
- If she is really high-strung getting into the box, she is probably pretty impatient. I would definitely try and throw her off balance with change ups. Either start her off with a change up or something tight in, make her pull it foul. Don't paint the black on this pitch, aim for her hands. She just may have enough adrenaline in her to take it over the fence if you hang it. A GOOD inside pitch thrown in the right situation is extremely difficult to hit hard and fair.

When she steps into the box, look for…

1) Foot positioning.
- Open stance: (front foot towards third if it's a righty, first for a lefty)
Chances are she is either having trouble keeping her front side in on the pitch, or she is protecting herself against the inside. Check to see if her body becomes closed at the time of the pitch. If she gets closed, JAM HER IN. If she gets the barrel on the ball she will most likely jam herself, or pull it foul.

Closed stance: (front foot towards the plate) I would live inside on her. She is most likely looking for the outside pitch and protecting herself from getting beat on it. Go down and in, up and in, and make her fist herself out to the shortstop. Just watch to make sure that she doesn't step in the bucket when she strides. But again, in this case, a good inside pitch will still be difficult for her to hit hard and fair.

2) Hand positioning:
- Low hands: Probably swings fairly level, but again, check on deck or warm-up swings.
Be careful with the flat plane pitches (screw and curve) unless they have some up and down movement. Will probably have better success on the rise ball as well.
- High hands: I'm guessing she's pretty loopy so I'm going to jam her tight to start off and find out what the plane of her swing looks like because it could really go either way. She may have a straight rise ball swing, or a long, looping drop ball swing.

3) Box positioning:
- Front of the box: If she's in the front, I think that means she anxious. She is trying to bring more pitches into her strike zone. I'd go with jamming her and working in the change up.
- Back of the box: She is either not seeing the ball well, or she is very patient and wants you to bring the ball into the strike zone. Work ahead of the batter (first pitch strike) and go with your best moving pitches.

There are so many other tips that you learn from watching and studying batters.
As I go through the pitches that I would likely throw in certain situations, it is important to remember that this doesn't mean that you abandon every other pitch and just stick to one or two. It just means that we've identified a "weakness" and we've got to expose it.

There are many situations where you learn to throw to the batter and not the plate. What I mean by this is if the batter is standing a fairly good distance off the plate, of course you automatically assume that she will have a difficult time reaching the outside pitch and is probably looking inside. What I am going to do is start her off outside and get a strike (hopefully?) Let's say she swings but looks pretty bad. The next pitch I am going to go right back at it, just a little further out and see if she'll bite. She leans in, but takes the ball off the outside corner. Now I've got her leaning to the outside. I know she doesn't like that pitch but I've got her thinking that I'm living on the out. She moves just a little closer to the plate, not much, and now I am throwing to her hands. Not to hit her obviously, but I'm throwing just below her hands through her belly button. I know she's off the plate and looking to protect the inside but I'm throwing to her, not the strike zone. She will do one of three things. She'll turn on it hard and pull it foul, she'll jam herself into an out, or I'll force her back off the plate a little more. Remember a good inside pitch is difficult to hit hard and fair. Good inside does not necessarily mean a good strike. Now, I go back out to finish her off. Sounds like fun, huh?

On the other hand. There are situations where you don't even need to waste time or pitches. You start a girl off low and in and she fouls it between her legs. Clearly she had a difficult time with that pitch so now you go with the same pitch, just a little further in and a little lower. This is not a waste pitch. You want her to see it as the same pitch. She takes a not so pretty cut over the top, again. Now she's frustrated and thinking, "gotta protect," so you go right back at it, a little lower and a little farther in, maybe almost in the dirt. If she doesn't go for it, you've definitely got her thinking, and have set her up for the out, or change up.

We joke out here that there is a 90/10 rule when it comes to listening. 10% of everything you hear is actually heard and processed. The other 90% just goes in one ear and out the other. So if you remember anything from this article, I want this to be your 10%. Every pitch you throw must serve a purpose. For example, if I know absolutely nothing about a batter as she steps into the box, I've got to use that first pitch to gather as much information about her as possible. I like to start with a good inside pitch or a change up. Remember how we define that good inside pitch, and I like to keep the change up low and away. That is how I am able to gather the most information. If you throw a pitch right down the middle, or even on the inside part of the black and the batter does nothing but watches it, what have you learned?
Throw every pitch with a purpose.

Set the batter up to hit, or miss, what you want. Guess what, sometimes it slips or you make a bad decision. Big deal. Learn from it but keep plugging along. Remember, these are all just suggestions. I know not everyone has "all the tools" but you can make the best possible situation out of what you have! Take control of your own game and you'll be more confident.

Amanda

ontheblack Posts: 2355Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 2:27 pm

Always enjoy reading Amanda's words of wisdom!

Amanda Freed (hands on hips)
Excellent Experience sharing the field with her working with pitchers and me working with the catchers.
Then working both together! Those days on the field you never forget!

 

[ArmWhip]

While I agree with most of what Amanda says it seems to me to be aimed at a coach who is calling pitches. Since on deck hitters generally swing to time the pitcher/pitch I can't see how the pitcher or catcher is going to be able to get a look at their swing. Since a lot of the pitch calls are based on the hitters swing type and mental state this advice is not very useful for either a catcher or a pitcher.

 

[RADcatcher]

Think it's good for everybody to pay attention to different hitting mechanics to understand pros and cons of them.

For pitchers and catchers who are involved in the responsibility to call pitches. As well the defense who is going to be reacting if the ball comes off the bat.
Paying attention to batters swings IS important! Definitely it can be helpful!

Can happen when batters step up to the box and watching pre-swings. Even just a batting stance can have tells in it.
Watching swings as batter step out of the box and do another practice swing.
Can see things on the first swings in the box. And certainly hopefully learning going through the lineup.

Definitely there are some batters who change where they stand, how they stand and even their grip on the bat sometimes.

it is important to learn about these things to be useful as players are developing. Because the softball world has diversity in it.
Just because on one team a coach dictates everything.
On the next team the coach might give this responsibility to the players!

Thankful to the coaches who actually teach players instead of dictate to players.!