Throwing Balls

[RADcatcher]

if the coach is clueless when it comes to choosing locations.

That in itself is its own dilemma!
Yet ...it does happen...
Tough situation when the players are smarter than the coach!
Then players have to make their own decision if they should override bad coaching decision making.

 

[BucketDud]

I agree here. My daughter called her own games in HS in 21 and 22. Basically, the coach didn't care, so he let her call the game. We got a new coach in 23, and a new catcher, so the coach had the catcher call the games. She was awful. 0-2 or 1-2 count? Change up. She wouldn't call movement pitches in certain counts, and she was afraid to call the drop because she hated to block. Was it any surprise the pitching performance suffered? No.

My daughter studies the game. She watches hitters and sees where they stand in the box. Why not let her call the game?

Agree 100% with this. But also I'm not opposed to coaches or catchers calling pitches at all. Every team has to figure out what works best for them.

Just not sure why some coaches aren't willing to consider the pitcher calling her own as one of the options. My guess is mainly ego......

 

[RADcatcher]

I agree here. My daughter called her own games in HS in 21 and 22. Basically, the coach didn't care, so he let her call the game. We got a new coach in 23, and a new catcher, so the coach had the catcher call the games. She was awful. 0-2 or 1-2 count? Change up. She wouldn't call movement pitches in certain counts, and she was afraid to call the drop because she hated to block. Was it any surprise the pitching performance suffered? No.

My daughter studies the game. She watches hitters and sees where they stand in the box. Why not let her call the game?

This simply looks like a grievance about whoever was calling pitches not doing a good job. Combined with a coach who didn't care and another season where no one was helping develop the situation.

 

[RADcatcher]

( these things can apply to some people)

Here are two reasons to not have a pitcher call their own game.
1. Pitcher goggles.
It's kind of like parent goggles
(they don't see actual reality of the productivity of their own child.)
Pitcher goggles is a pitcher that doesn't see the actual reality of their productivity of their own pitches.
( this could be the exact same reason to not have parents call pitches for their daughter)

2. If the pitcher is calling their own game they take the FULL Brunt of the outcome. True could be winning, but the brunt of losing weighs on their shoulders also.
*Basically having somebody else call the game removes some of the Brunt of bad outcome.
In a successful outcome (regardless of who called the pitch) they still get the reward of winning because they achieved what was asked of them. But if they are calling their own pitches and lose, possibly not only did they not physically produce good pitches but they also made the decision to throw what they did!



imo, best scenarios are whomever is going to call pitches that there is another person that is allowed to say 'no I think there's a better choice' and be able to communicate about those moments.

 

[uncdrew]

Pitch calling is not rocket science. Tell her to throw the pitch called and have the catcher point her index finger in or out for location. In the meantime I would request a confidential meeting with HC and AD.
I am surprised she hasn't tried to change her mechanics. These are the exact type of coaches that give HS coaches a bad name.

Oh...

This assistant coach who calls pitches (who didn't play in college and we're not sure if she ever played) tried to change her mechanics on her change and her rise.

*sigh*

She did the "nod and ignore".

 

[uncdrew]

I just previewed my post, sorry it's so long. Wow, I'm long winded. Sorry.

I don't normally read through 4 pages on a thread but for this one I did. I came away with a different thought. First there's a lot to be said about this coach thinking too many strikes are thrown, which might honestly be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. But that aside. Overall, I think this situation is the poster child for a pitcher who's had every pitch of their life given to them from the bench. Girls are being turned into robots and here is this girl, who doesn't even seem to know what to do without being given directions. If kids were taught how to call pitches and learn from their own mistakes while pitching, there'd be less of this. While it can be easily argued that whomever is teaching them at a young age must also know what to call and when so they can teach it, I would agree. Except you have that same situation now at an older age where a HS age pitcher has an issue when not being told exactly what to throw and where. So the question becomes, do you want them learning how and what to throw on their own at 12u or 18u?

I was amazed at entering the college game coaching ranks at what these ladies were never taught as kids. Things that, to me, were very basic like: don't throw a riseball with a R3 and less than 2 outs. Why give them the higher % of getting a sac fly? Or, Not throwing slappers change ups until they have 2 strikes, or else good ones will drop a bunt when they realize the pitch (most won't bunt with 2 strikes). I see change ups thrown with 0-2 counts a lot at youth levels, which never really made a lot of sense to me. Usually with 2 strikes a hitter is trying to protect and cuts down their swing, which (again going on % here) means a change up will be less effective. Can it work? Sure.

The ones that really ruffle my feathers are the coaches who don't let the pitcher shake off a pitch call. Even for me, I would sometimes have to shake off a good idea by my catcher because I have a ball in play that is bad. It might slick. It might not have good seams. It might feel heavier than the other ball in the ump's bag, etc. If a coach (or catcher) calls for a riseball when I'm holding a slick ball without seams that feels heavy, it might not be the best time for that pitch under those circumstances. I think more and more umps are allowing pitchers to switch balls even without the one going out of play, but some still follow the strict rule of not changing the ball until the one in play goes out. Personally, when I've had an umpire who won't let me have the ball in his bag, I will throw the next pitch over the backstop! Whoops!!! Now give me the other ball please!!

I'm not in favor of waste pitches. Sometimes the simplest thing can throw a pitcher out of their rhythm. Intentional walks are another, I've seen pitchers struggle on the next hitter after an INT walk because the rhythm has been broken.

I'm equally as angry when I give up a hit on an 0-2 pitch as I am on a 1-0 pitch. I believe in throwing the least amount of pitches to every single batter as possible. I need 21 outs, and if I can do that in 21 pitches where everyone hits the first pitch on the ground, I'd be ecstatic. Obviously that's not realistic but, the point is 21 outs. I know having only 3 K's in a game isn't considered a sexy stat for a pitcher but, if those 3 K's still provided me the win, I'd take it.

Final thought to consider, the situation the OP described is a good reason to NOT play HS ball. I know it's fun for kids to play ball with their school friends and have a good time. And that's great, go have fun like kids should be having fun!! But it seems to me, and this is from 23 years of lessons, school ball coaches tend to overstep their bounds more than TB coaches. What I mean is, as a whole, I've seen more HS coaches try "teaching pitching" or "teaching hitting" that contradicts what the kid's private coach teaches. Again, in my experience, TB coaches seem to let private coaches do their thing more than HS coaches. NO, not all HS coaches do this. I'm not condemning them all. Only saying in my experience the coaches who try to "reteach" pitching to my students comes more from HS than TB coaches. The reality is, your kid isn't being recruited to college based off HS stats. There isn't a college coach in the country that will ask a recruit about their HS stats, they may ask how the season went to be polite. But, it's very rare a college coach will even see a HS game, let alone recruit from one. So, just know, if college is the goal, she does not need HS ball. Especially if the HS coach is going to try to alter what the private coaches that you're paying for are doing.

Oversimplified? Maybe. Or perhaps others just make it more complicated?

I'm a little offended at your assumptions, but in general I understand where you're coming from.

However, what you're missing out on is the mind of a 13 year old girl, the dynamics of being the only freshman on the varsity team, and a coach who will bench you for not doing what she says.

Of course my DD knows how to pitch - that's why this thread exists - because she knows the pitch call is the wrong one (at times). She could call her own pitches easily and I think she'd do better than what this coach does, but that's not allowed. She's tried to address it twice and been shut down. I'm pretty proud of how she's handling it, quite honestly.

 

[uncdrew]

I'm a novice but if we're up in the count I often give my pitcher 2 signals to choose from. She calls what she wants, that has worked well. Again I'm working with a 13 year old not a high school pitcher.

My DD is both.

Part of the issue is that the head coach let one of the assistant coaches go last year. So this assistant coach feels the need to prove herself. If she gave up pitch calling, she has no role on the team and isn't needed.

 

[LEsoftballdad]

This simply looks like a grievance about whoever was calling pitches not doing a good job. Combined with a coach who didn't care and another season where no one was helping develop the situation.

Of course, it's a grievance, but it is valid. It was said pitchers shouldn't call their pitches. I was pointing out a scenario in which my daughter was significantly better at calling pitches than the alternatives, including her sister. Now, is she better than her travel coach at calling pitches? Probably not. He has way more information at his fingers than she does, but she did fine when she did get to call her own game in travel.

 

[uncdrew]

What if your daughter told the coach that she has trouble hitting spots without the catcher's glove as a target? So the catcher needs to get location from the coach so that she knows where to position the glove. Although this might make it worse if the coach is clueless when it comes to choosing locations.

It's an interesting idea. Me, her travel coach, the dad of the catchers... all have asked my DD over the years if she wants/needs a target (the catcher's glove). My DD says she prefers one, but doesn't need one.

As most of you probably know, there's a new trend in catching that the catcher puts the glove on the ground so that when she catches low pitches she's framing upward and perhaps getting calls. I suppose they can give the target, then drop the target, but that seems distracting. So the catchers on her travel team (who are really, really good) have their glove on the ground. My DD can hit her spots that way.

But telling this pitching coach she wants the target could work. As I'm mentioned in this thread, the HS catchers are really good athletes but don't play catcher outside of HS and don't take catching lessons. So getting them to change their ways might not work. And as we know, suggesting things to this Assistant Coach doesn't work.

Playoffs in a few days. Then back to travel for 10 months.

 

[RADcatcher]

It's an interesting idea. Me, her travel coach, the dad of the catchers... all have asked my DD over the years if she wants/needs a target (the catcher's glove). My DD says she prefers one, but doesn't need one.

As most of you probably know, there's a new trend in catching that the catcher puts the glove on the ground so that when she catches low pitches she's framing upward and perhaps getting calls. I suppose they can give the target, then drop the target, but that seems distracting. So the catchers on her travel team (who are really, really good) have their glove on the ground. My DD can hit her spots that way.

But telling this pitching coach she wants the target could work. As I'm mentioned in this thread, the HS catchers are really good athletes but don't play catcher outside of HS and don't take catching lessons. So getting them to change their ways might not work. And as we know, suggesting things to this Assistant Coach doesn't work.

Playoffs in a few days. Then back to travel for 10 months.

At some point a catcher putting a Target/glove where the intended pitch location is going to be will give away details to help the batter. Particularly when coaches or dug out see's catcher-presenting location/target with their glove then can call out pitch location for the batter.

Pitchers can use other visual cues for their pitch location. As said earlier,
things like the catcher's shoulders or knees.