Should we teach the fastball?

[Hillhouse]

If Hillhouse is correct, maybe we should teach our young DD's a movement pitch FIRST (e.g. fast drop, fast screw) and then the change-up? and essentially never teaching them a fastball since it won't be used later and might be a waste of time learning a pitch that is never used after say 12U?

Per your private message, I'll just address this quickly.. I do think some pitchers, especially those blessed with velocity can throw a 'fastball' past age 12. That says as much about the pitcher's ability to strike them out with it as it does about the hitters who are not taught to CRUSH straight pitches. But the problem is, people in general don't seem to understand what a real peel drop is. They add things to it to make it seem harder and more difficult. In doing this, people think they are 2 very different pitches. Yet, most pitchers 12 yrs old and up who throw a "Fastball" with straight 6/12 rotation will have a catcher tell them the ball has "movement to it". this is done by the release point, not some fancy release twist or pull up action. Again, this is all assuming the ball is spinning straight. If so, the drop should come natural with the proper angle at release. The speed and spin will pick up as she starts to generate more power from legs and whip in the elbow to supply it.

I've said it 100 times and I'll say it again... why does anyone want to throw a straight pitch? I simply don't get it. And as the pitcher gets along in age, so does her competition. Straight pitches that worked at 10U don't work as well at 12U. And they work less at 14U and even less at 16U. By 18U, if she's still throwing straight pitches and getting outs, I'd like to know about it and learn from her.

Bill

 

[coachdan]

What is the proper release angle for a good peel drop? Is it different for every pitcher or is there a rule of thumb to use for everyone? I have always taught to release at the back hip, should the peel be release sooner ?

 

[Ken Krause]

But the problem is, people in general don't seem to understand what a real peel drop is. They add things to it to make it seem harder and more difficult. In doing this, people think they are 2 very different pitches. Yet, most pitchers 12 yrs old and up who throw a "Fastball" with straight 6/12 rotation will have a catcher tell them the ball has "movement to it". this is done by the release point, not some fancy release twist or pull up action. Again, this is all assuming the ball is spinning straight. If so, the drop should come natural with the proper angle at release. The speed and spin will pick up as she starts to generate more power from legs and whip in the elbow to supply it.

Bill

I think this gets back to something MarkH said earlier. It depends on your definition of a peel drop, and how you throw it. I don't like all the histrionics that have traditionally been associated with it either, but may not teach it quite the same way as you.

I do start them with a fastball. I want them to be able to throw the ball reliably to a spot, especially at the younger ages. A pitcher who can't throw strikes reliably will be replaced in a game by one who can. Game coaches aren't usually that interested in the pitcher's individual development, they want to win. If they can't stay in games they can't gain the experience they need to handle the pressure and challenges of pitching later. It's as much mental as physical. If she's throwing strikes and getting beaten up it will be incentive to throw harder and learn movement/change of speed pitches in my opinion. If she can't throw strikes and gets pulled out of every game she's more likely to get discouraged than incented. Just my opinion and experience.

Agree that once you can throw strikes reliably you want to get rid of that and get movement. To me, the peel drop is a modified fastball. Release is a little further back and hand pulls over the top of the ball rather than snapping up behind it. I work with a lot of shorter girls and they need to start the ball a little higher off the ground to get it to look more like a strike. I tell them to throw the pitch as if it's to be a knee-high strike and let the ball do the work (as opposed to try to throw it down). It works pretty reliably -- if they hit the release point.

And I guess that's the tradeoff. You have to learn a second release point versus having it there from the start. Based on what I said earlier, though, I think it's worthwhile.

The other X factor is the umpires. Often times at the younger ages you don't get the best of umpires. You get the beginners. Some have trouble calling a pitch that doesn't wind up even with the strike zone when it's in the catcher's glove a strike. That can be frustrating for a young pitcher too. I've also seen many that have trouble calling a quality changeup a strike. If they get fooled, they tend to think it's a ball for whatever reason, at least until they get used to it.

 

[Mark H]

What is the proper release angle for a good peel drop? Is it different for every pitcher or is there a rule of thumb to use for everyone? I have always taught to release at the back hip, should the peel be release sooner ?

Depends on where you want it to cross the plate, how fast you throw it and how much your drop breaks. Get as much spin and break as you can and release it at the angle that results in it crossing the plate at the height you want it to cross the plate.

 

[Mark H]

I've also seen many that have trouble calling a quality changeup a strike. If they get fooled, they tend to think it's a ball for whatever reason, at least until they get used to it.

I'll witness for you on that one.

 

[Ken Krause]

Thanks, Mark. I actually warn my students about it. But the first time it happens, they come back to me incredulous that a pitch at the thighs and right down the middle was called a ball. It's funny to see how worked up they get about it.

 

[DonnieS]

In defense of the blues, I catch for some pretty good pitchers, one of who is the pitcher at our high school. She does such a great job of selling her changeup - that even when I call it and know thats whats coming, and she floats that baby out there, I am blinking/ducking thinking its another fast pitch coming at me. She actually does not do a good job of releasing the ball, and rolls or bounces a lot of them. But the sell job is so good, these girls swing and really look foolish, though me catching her at practice really looks stupid since I even know whats coming. I think I always have that little doubt in my mind - what if she missed my signal, what if this is a rise!

 

[ifubuildit]

Donnie,

Your problem is you havent realized yet your getting too old to be behind the plate. Old Dawgs never learn.

 

[ifubuildit]

Good Thread

Have been out of the loop due to the holidays and family illness.

One of the things that I teach my students with the peel is not to put the thumb directly in the middle of the ball opposite the position on the fingers. I have them off set it a bit to the right or left but still on the seam. Much like Bill Hillhouse has mentioned here the release point is the key IMO. It has to be a bit sooner than normal. I tell them when they get to release to lift the thumb up off the ball and let it roll off the ends of the finger tips. This cue works well for my students.

This seems to improve the spin on the ball and give it more movement down. While I dont have a RPM ball to measure it there seems to be more spin. I can see this visually as well as with the movement and in the end the result works well.

Dana

 

[Ken Krause]

I always tell the bucket parents to be ready for a fastball when we call for a change during a lesson, just in case. It's saved many a forehead.