Should we teach the fastball?

[lhowser]

Velocity is a strong indicator of good underhand throwing mechanics. A few weekends back at 14U I had a pitcher (she is just playing winter ball with me so I haven't clocked her) who throws exceptionally hard, as hard as I have seen from an 8th grader (I am guessing 62ish) and her speed completely dominated one of the top 10 14U teams in the state of Ohio. Regarding the original question:

If Hillhouse is correct, maybe we should teach our young DD's a movement pitch FIRST (e.g. fast drop, fast screw) and then the change-up? and essentially never teaching them a fastball since it won't be used later and might be a waste of time learning a pitch that is never used after say 12U?

Boardmember says in a different thread:

Obviously, in order to affect the best 6-12 spin, your hands have to be large enough for both the thumb and fingertips to reach the cross laces of the seams AND be directly opposite each other... will NOT teach peel drop to pitchers who cannot reach OPPOSITE seams with both the thumb and gripping fingers unless we rotate the ball in the hand in such a way the allows them to "get a grip" with both.

so this sounds like a tough pitch to start an 8 or 9 year old on.
A screw seems like it would be a tricky first pitch and would be challenging for a 8 or 9 year old to locate on the outside and not work right over the plate. I don't think you would start a boy baseball player off learning a breaking pitch?

Go for the fastball with the little ones and just call it a pitch.

 

[Mark H]

I'll take a stab at the definition.

A fastball thrown with the peel drop grip is one that comes in fast but does not have enough spin to make a noticeable drop beyond what gravity would cause to that pitch. Major emphasis on ball spin is not really put on that pitch although some will throw it with more spin than others.

The same grip, WITH emphasis on achieving more spin, will have a noticeable amount of drop 'action', more than what one would expect from gravity. The mechanics for each are usually a little different.

Ideally, in my opini0on, the ball comes off the the ends of the three large fingers. Depending on the size of the hands to the ball, the fingers might be close together (For the larger hands/longer fingers) OR the fingers might be spread wide just to keep some kind of grip on that big ole softball so they dont lose it in the circle.

How close together the fingers are or how far apart they are will have an effect also.

Ball speed, gravity and ball spin. You must also remember that a young beginner with exceptional speed will have to produce equally exceptional ball spin, one of those forces must overpower the other. That is what is necessary for a good dropball; the downspin must be more powerful than the speed of the pitch. The young beginners need to understand that or their frustration levels can get really high.

Sounds good to me. Any objections?

Question, will the adjustments to create more spin cost any mph in your experience and how much both initially and in the long run?

 

[Mark H]

I don't think you would start a boy baseball player off learning a breaking pitch?

Weeeellll, this goes back to definitions. A boy's baseball "fastball" has the spin we try to achieve on a rise ball. Some bb pitchers achieve such good spin they have a "lively" fastball that hitters tend to get under. But your point is valid that boys start off with the spin their natural motion achieves and so too should girls. I would say, and I suspect Hillhouse might agree, that good mechanics with a loose whippy arm action would give a girl this "lively" pitch with movement from the start. My experience has been adjustments can be made that add spin and cost a couple of mph creating significantly more break. This is what I have heard called a drop historically around here. Again, I'm not calling anyone's definition wrong. I'm just trying to facilitate better understanding of each other's definitions and thoughts.

 

[lhowser]

I would say, and I suspect Hillhouse might agree, that good mechanics with a loose whippy arm action would give a girl this "lively" pitch with movement from the start. My experience has been adjustments can be made that add spin and cost a couple of mph creating significantly more break. This is what I have heard called a drop historically around here.

That's exactly what I've seen and heard around here as well. Seems like Pauly's drop method however has very little effect on reduction velocity as it relies more on release angle.

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

Velocity is a strong indicator of good underhand throwing mechanics. A few weekends back at 14U I had a pitcher (she is just playing winter ball with me so I haven't clocked her) who throws exceptionally hard, as hard as I have seen from an 8th grader (I am guessing 62ish) and her speed completely dominated one of the top 10 14U teams in the state of Ohio. Regarding the original question:

Boardmember says in a different thread:
so this sounds like a tough pitch to start an 8 or 9 year old on.
A screw seems like it would be a tricky first pitch and would be challenging for a 8 or 9 year old to locate on the outside and not work right over the plate. I don't think you would start a boy baseball player off learning a breaking pitch?

Go for the fastball with the little ones and just call it a pitch.

At 8U, we use a 10" ball. For the heck of it, I just asked my DD (7YO) to grip the ball and she can touch both opposite seams with her thumb and middle fingers. She has been taught by PC the past 5 months to throw a four seam fastball. She's finally getting to the point where she is throwing more strikes than balls. Most of her misses tend to run low and inside (more like 2 to 8 spin from catcher point of view) to RH batter or high and outside. Obviously she is just learning how to pitch. I just didn't/don't want to spend the next couple of season's teaching her the fastball if it will be seldom used later. Regarding baseball, the fastball is an important pitch that will be used throughout their career, but that does not seem to be the case with the girls.

 

[DonnieS]

SocalsbDad, before you discard the fastball, go to some high level h/s games, go to some D1 games, go to some good travel tournaments, set up behind the home plate in the bleachers and watch what is being thrown vs what people say is being thrown.

 

[Mark H]

Again, what's a "fastball"? I've been told many times if your "fastball" is significantly faster than your movement pitches it can serve as a change of speed pitch. A "fastball" defined as a lively pitch with downspin that causes a break might be someone else's "drop". I think a lot of the arguments are based on differing definitions.

 

[BoardMember]

I was re-reading the enlightening "Internal Rotation" thread and one of Hillhouse's quotes caught my attention. I am paraphrasing but he essentially says "why would anyone want to throw a fastball". I don't want to speak for him but would assume he thinks it to be a useless pitch since it has very little movement (only 12-6 spin). Most pitching 101 books/articles say to teach fastball first, than change-up, maybe drop, screw, and rise ball last.

If Hillhouse is correct, maybe we should teach our young DD's a movement pitch FIRST (e.g. fast drop, fast screw) and then the change-up? and essentially never teaching them a fastball since it won't be used later and might be a waste of time learning a pitch that is never used after say 12U?

There are SO many reasons that this approach is sub-optimal IMO, I couldn't begin to cover them all........

Starting with the simple fact that to be successful, a young student must be able to "reach the catcher" from 35 ft. without a significant "hump" in the ball. Teaching fastball with some amount dynamic gyroscopic stability allows the ball to remain in flight long enough to be successful, and is paramount to building self-confidence and self-esteem.

There is a reason for using human learning behavioral building block patterns that reach far beyond whether a pitcher will ever throw a fastball past 16U.

When is the last time you consciouly remember needing the first line in the follow learning pattern. However, whether you know it or not, you call on the first line everyday of your life, because it formed an understanding of how all things relate.......

1+1=2, 1+2=3, 1+3=4, 1+4=5.......

2+2=4, 4+4=8, 8+8=16, 16+16=32.......

1x1=1, 2x2 = 4, 4x4=16, 6x6=36, 8x8=64, 10x10=100.......

I can't tell you the amount of times I've had to tell a dad: "call me when your DD can reach the catcher", because "drop" was the first pitch they learned, and under the pressure of tryouts, nerves and fear of failure has overwhelmed the ability to control a pitch that is inessence doubling the effects of gravity.

In the following clip, the FIRST pitcher appears to be about 8-9 years old. She is throwing a peel drop. In the 3 pitches she throws, 2 must be short-hopped by the catcher. The other is thrown with a significant "hump" and barely reaches the catcher.



Now compare that to this 10yo throwing 52-55 mph to locations, combined with a good change.



I guarantee you "peel drop" was NOT the first pitch she learned.

Give me this 10yo all day long, and I'll teach her to spin it..........

The formation of correct habit patterns from the beginning of any learning process is essential to further learning and for correct performance after the completion of training. Remember, primacy is one of the fundamental principles of learning. Therefore, it is the instructor's responsibility to insist on correct techniques and procedures from the outset of training to provide proper habit patterns. It is much easier to foster proper habits from the beginning of training than to correct faulty ones later.

Due to the high level of knowledge and skill required, training traditionally has followed a building block concept. This means new learning and habit patterns are based on a solid foundation of experience and/or old learning. Everything from intricate cognitive processes to simple motor skills depends on what the student already knows and how that knowledge can be applied in the present. As knowledge and skill increase, there is an expanding base upon which to build for the future.

I always start with fastball as a basic fundamental mechanical building block..........

But hey, what do I know. I topped out at mens A.......And never won a national championship......

 

[lhowser]

SocalsbDad, before you discard the fastball, go to some high level h/s games, go to some D1 games, go to some good travel tournaments, set up behind the home plate in the bleachers and watch what is being thrown vs what people say is being thrown.

This is very true. Like DonnieS is see plenty of fastballs, especially at 3-1 or 3-2 that are located nicely on the black or just off the plate. Many times the "drop" is effective because it also winds of being "off speed"...perhaps not intentionally.

Again, what's a "fastball"? I've been told many times if your "fastball" is significantly faster than your movement pitches it can serve as a change of speed pitch. A "fastball" defined as a lively pitch with downspin that causes a break might be someone else's "drop". I think a lot of the arguments are based on differing definitions.

I think that is exactly correct. It might cut in and down as Boardmember described or maybe out and down if the pitcher comes slightly around and over the ball with fingers. If they are just throwing it hard at a location with primarily trying to impart a movement spin I guess it's a "fastball".

 

[sjsss]

The fastball is the foundation for beginning pitchers to learn proper mechanics, to build speed and to hone control. If the foundation is laid properly, at the right time other pitches can be built on that foundation. In my experience the idea of starting a beginner off with a breaking pitch is not realistic. They need to begin by learning to just throw without encumbering them with additional tweaks, no matter how small those tweaks may be. Obviously there comes a time when the fastball is not used, assuming that they truly have command of other pitches.