Should we teach the fastball?

[SoCalSoftballdad]

There are SO many reasons that this approach is sub-optimal IMO, I couldn't begin to cover them all........

Starting with the simple fact that to be successful, a young student must be able to "reach the catcher" from 35 ft. without a significant "hump" in the ball. Teaching fastball with some amount dynamic gyroscopic stability allows the ball to remain in flight long enough to be successful, and is paramount to building self-confidence and self-esteem.

There is a reason for using human learning behavioral building block patterns that reach far beyond whether a pitcher will ever throw a fastball past 16U.

When is the last time you consciouly remember needing the first line in the follow learning pattern. However, whether you know it or not, you call on the first line everyday of your life, because it formed an understanding of how all things relate.......

1+1=2, 1+2=3, 1+3=4, 1+4=5.......

2+2=4, 4+4=8, 8+8=16, 16+16=32.......

1x1=1, 2x2 = 4, 4x4=16, 6x6=36, 8x8=64, 10x10=100.......

I can't tell you the amount of times I've had to tell a dad: "call me when your DD can reach the catcher", because "drop" was the first pitch they learned, and under the pressure of tryouts, nerves and fear of failure has overwhelmed the ability to control a pitch that is inessence doubling the effects of gravity.

In the following clip, the FIRST pitcher appears to be about 8-9 years old. She is throwing a peel drop. In the 3 pitches she throws, 2 must be short-hopped by the catcher. The other is thrown with a significant "hump" and barely reaches the catcher.



Now compare that to this 10yo throwing 52-55 mph to locations, combined with a good change.



I guarantee you "peel drop" was NOT the first pitch she learned.

Give me this 10yo all day long, and I'll teach her to spin it..........



I always start with fastball as a basic fundamental mechanical building block..........

But hey, what do I know. I topped out at mens A.......And never won a national championship......

Thanks for the analysis BM. I think your credentials speak for themselves, no need to downplay it. I guess my point is that the "peel drop" is essentially the traditional "fastball" but with more 12-6 rotation caused by different finger pressure and thrown off of the finger tips more. New, young pitchers are probably "naturally" throwing some form of "peel drop" while trying to throw their fastball. There are certaintly times when I catch my DD that the "fastball" dips down more than others. Her speed is above average, so I am not concerned about the ball bouncing in front of the catcher (per your video). Nor I am advocating changing anything else in her arm swing in an attempt to create more spin (forward lean, shortened stride foot, etc.). Just don't want to waste my DD's time perfecting a relatively flat, fastball that does not have movement and might never be used after a couple of years.

 

[FJRGerry]

Drop VS. Fastball as first pitch

Say a girl learns the drop as her first pitch and does well with it; what will she do when asked to throw high & in/out if she hasn't mastered hitting locations using the fastball? A pitcher who can hit her spots with the velocity of a fastball will be successful through 14U. Hopefully before then she'll be taught a couple of movement or off-speed pitches as well.

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

Say a girl learns the drop as her first pitch and does well with it; what will she do when asked to throw high & in/out if she hasn't mastered hitting locations using the fastball? A pitcher who can hit her spots with the velocity of a fastball will be successful through 14U. Hopefully before then she'll be taught a couple of movement or off-speed pitches as well.

Is it not possible to pitch a fastball WITH movement (i.e. peel drop) to all four corners if one has command of the pitch? I think I would prefer a fastball with movement over a straight fastball with little movement as long as the velocity is maintained.

 

[Mark H]

Is it not possible to pitch a fastball WITH movement (i.e. peel drop)

Yeah. So at what point does it quit being a 12-6 lively fastball and start being called a drop?

 

[Jeff_H]

If your pitcher is walking 7 kids in 9 innings, control should be the main item to work on. Our goal at 10u was to average less than 1 walk per weekend tournament. My guess with the high rate of strikeouts per nine innings, this is league level ball. There may be a different story in tournament play.

What we did at that level was (she pitched 8, 9 and 10 y/o year at 10u) is go play tournament or travel teams next and learn to compete at that level. It burst our bubble for a while, we went perfect in league play (her 8 y/o year), then went 'to the big city', and faced the big kids. We learned a lot.

Donnie I read this and had a small chuckle we had the very same experience, only worse. We packed up and went to our first big tournament as a first year 10u team, our very first game was against Hillary Bach who is now at ASU. I swear she was 6' tall back then. We got a single base runner the whole game that the catcher promptly picked off first the very next batter.

 

[Jeff_H]

Is it not possible to pitch a fastball WITH movement (i.e. peel drop) to all four corners if one has command of the pitch? I think I would prefer a fastball with movement over a straight fastball with little movement as long as the velocity is maintained.

There comes a point where speed of rotation can't over come the angle of the pitch.

I wish I had kept the simulation Nyman did with the drop and release angle from the old pitching-mechanics.org site

 

[DonnieS]

Donnie I read this and had a small chuckle we had the very same experience, only worse. We packed up and went to our first big tournament as a first year 10u team, our very first game was against Hillary Bach who is now at ASU. I swear she was 6' tall back then. We got a single base runner the whole game that the catcher promptly picked off first the very next batter.

Jeff, our first game against a legit team had a kid that was nicknamed 'the fridge'. We played late in the evening on an unlit field - I remember that 'the Fridge' hit one of my kid's pitches so far, its probably still in orbit. We only lost 1-0 so that wasnt too bad - though it did get worse.... before it got better. The good thing about your experience against Bach is telling your kids on the next game 'Well, these guys may be good, but there is no one there like ______ (fill in the name)". It was a challenge coming up with things to say in those early days - I remember thinking "God, I cant wait to at least win a pool game, if we could just win one pool game, what a start." Then finally it happened, and then one day, we got to the championship. My kid said "Dad - this is great." Ever since then, every time we get to a championship game in a tournament, I take a slow walk across the diamond, trying to not ever forget how it felt the first time.

Another quick one - when dd was 11, the team I had put together had to play 14u - not too bad , but dd was a decent pitcher but very little. We were playing at the USFA deal in panama city beach, played against one of those corn fed group of George belles, damn they were big, everyone seemed to be 5 - 10, blonde hair, blue eyes, and even us Texans couldnt understand them. DD was standing by me when they walked by, towering over her 5.0 by 10 inches or so. I was trying to see what dd was thinking - I said 'So kid, you ready for this .' She said, "Yea I am, sure is a lot of strike zone on those girls, dont you think?"

 

[sluggers]

DonnieS: You have learned well, young Jedi.

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

There comes a point where speed of rotation can't over come the angle of the pitch.

I wish I had kept the simulation Nyman did with the drop and release angle from the old pitching-mechanics.org site

John Gay, the nationally respected pitching coach in Vancouver, Washington says : “.... The fastest ball you can throw is a drop and the fastest drop you can throw, and one that has the greatest spin, is the peel drop." (ww.pitchsoftball.com).

It would seem to me that young pitchers would be well served to practice both spin and location as quickly as possible in the development process and have that pitch be the foundation for all other pitches. You have to remember, all of the other swing mechanics just prior to release will be the same, with finger pressure and more release off of the fingers tips making the difference in increased ball spin compared to the traditional fastball release (flatter pitch with less movement).

 

[Mark H]

Again. Depends on what you call a drop and what you call a fastball. I corresponded with John years ago from fastpitch forum. Some good discussions about hip action but that's a different thread.