Should we teach the fastball?

[SoCalSoftballdad]

I was re-reading the enlightening "Internal Rotation" thread and one of Hillhouse's quotes caught my attention. I am paraphrasing but he essentially says "why would anyone want to throw a fastball". I don't want to speak for him but would assume he thinks it to be a useless pitch since it has very little movement (only 12-6 spin). Most pitching 101 books/articles say to teach fastball first, than change-up, maybe drop, screw, and rise ball last.

If Hillhouse is correct, maybe we should teach our young DD's a movement pitch FIRST (e.g. fast drop, fast screw) and then the change-up? and essentially never teaching them a fastball since it won't be used later and might be a waste of time learning a pitch that is never used after say 12U?

 

[lhowser]

If your DD throws in the top 15% for her age group velocitywise and can locate in and out she wil be very successful through 12U. If she is throwing underhand using the "internal rotation" throw, whip, release described by "BoardMember" she will be well on her way. If she is doing it correctly the ball will show some plane movement. This weekend my 9 year old DD pitching in a 10U indoor event had 21 K's and 7 BB's in 9 innings throwing just fastballs and changeups. It was above average velocity for her age and control that seemed to be the key. Locating in and out and changing speeds will dominate most teams through 12U. Her hands and knowledge will grow and she will be able to add pitches that move under her command out and down, in and down and in and up along the way. IMO if she can't put 7 out of 10 where she wants them with above average velocity. Keep working on the basic mechanics.

 

[Coach-n-Dad]

Of course the fastball should be taught. It's true that 16U and up a pitcher will probably never throw it again, but the mechanics of the fastball is the base for most pitches.

 

[cshilt]

You need to put Bill's comment in context as he is a strong believer that a flat pitch will get hit and hit often. He teaches the peel drop, which is really just a fastball with a different release point. Instead of releasing the ball under the bellybutton you release a little before that. It give the 12-6 rotation more spin, is just as fast as a fastball, and leads to the split fingered cutter that move down and in/out (depending on finger pressure).

 

[FJRGerry]

First teach 4 seam fastball with proper mechanics. Learn to throw strikes! (1st season)
Next, once some consistancy has been achieved, teach 4 seam fastball hitting locations (4 corners). Learn to fool the batter with locations. (2nd season)
Next, once some consistancy has been achieved, teach 2 seam fastball hitting locations, as well as adjusting speed of fastball (slightly shorter stride, slightly less arm whip). Learn to fool with locations & speed. (3rd season)
Next introduce a movement pitch - typically either the change-up or peel drop. Learn to fool the batter with location, speed & movement. (3rd season)

The above is a general guideline based on the girl's age, ability and desire to learn & work.

 

[DonnieS]

If your DD throws in the top 15% for her age group velocitywise and can locate in and out she wil be very successful through 12U. If she is throwing underhand using the "internal rotation" throw, whip, release described by "BoardMember" she will be well on her way. If she is doing it correctly the ball will show some plane movement. This weekend my 9 year old DD pitching in a 10U indoor event had 21 K's and 7 BB's in 9 innings throwing just fastballs and changeups. It was above average velocity for her age and control that seemed to be the key. Locating in and out and changing speeds will dominate most teams through 12U. Her hands and knowledge will grow and she will be able to add pitches that move under her command out and down, in and down and in and up along the way. IMO if she can't put 7 out of 10 where she wants them with above average velocity. Keep working on the basic mechanics.

If your pitcher is walking 7 kids in 9 innings, control should be the main item to work on. Our goal at 10u was to average less than 1 walk per weekend tournament. My guess with the high rate of strikeouts per nine innings, this is league level ball. There may be a different story in tournament play.

What we did at that level was (she pitched 8, 9 and 10 y/o year at 10u) is go play tournament or travel teams next and learn to compete at that level. It burst our bubble for a while, we went perfect in league play (her 8 y/o year), then went 'to the big city', and faced the big kids. We learned a lot.

 

[Mark H]

Lots of good thoughts and stories so far. You all might want to make sure you are all on the same page in terms of defining what a peel drop is vs a 12-6 fastball. I'm thinking Hillhouse may have a different definition than some of you and I'm thinking differences in definition will exist between some of you as well. Not that one definition is necessarily wrong vs another but understanding each other's definition would greatly enhance the productivity of the conversation.

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

You need to put Bill's comment in context as he is a strong believer that a flat pitch will get hit and hit often. He teaches the peel drop, which is really just a fastball with a different release point. Instead of releasing the ball under the bellybutton you release a little before that. It give the 12-6 rotation more spin, is just as fast as a fastball, and leads to the split fingered cutter that move down and in/out (depending on finger pressure).

This is exactly my point. From day one, why not teach a movement pitch that is just as fast as a fastball (your example, Hillhouse peel drop) but has more movement/break to it. I agree with ihowser that a young pitcher can strike out a lot of batters with a good fastball (and change-up), I am just not sure you cannot achieve the same success with a fast pitch (other than the fastball) that DD will be using more later.

 

[halskinner]

Lots of good thoughts and stories so far. You all might want to make sure you are all on the same page in terms of defining what a peel drop is vs a 12-6 fastball. I'm thinking Hillhouse may have a different definition than some of you and I'm thinking differences in definition will exist between some of you as well. Not that one definition is necessarily wrong vs another but understanding each other's definition would greatly enhance the productivity of the conversation.

I'll take a stab at the definition.

A fastball thrown with the peel drop grip is one that comes in fast but does not have enough spin to make a noticeable drop beyond what gravity would cause to that pitch. Major emphasis on ball spin is not really put on that pitch although some will throw it with more spin than others.

The same grip, WITH emphasis on achieving more spin, will have a noticeable amount of drop 'action', more than what one would expect from gravity. The mechanics for each are usually a little different.

Ideally, in my opini0on, the ball comes off the the ends of the three large fingers. Depending on the size of the hands to the ball, the fingers might be close together (For the larger hands/longer fingers) OR the fingers might be spread wide just to keep some kind of grip on that big ole softball so they dont lose it in the circle.

How close together the fingers are or how far apart they are will have an effect also.

Ball speed, gravity and ball spin. You must also remember that a young beginner with exceptional speed will have to produce equally exceptional ball spin, one of those forces must overpower the other. That is what is necessary for a good dropball; the downspin must be more powerful than the speed of the pitch. The young beginners need to understand that or their frustration levels can get really high.

 

[DonnieS]

This is exactly my point. From day one, why not teach a movement pitch that is just as fast as a fastball (your example, Hillhouse peel drop) but has more movement/break to it. I agree with ihowser that a young pitcher can strike out a lot of batters with a good fastball (and change-up), I am just not sure you cannot achieve the same success with a fast pitch (other than the fastball) that DD will be using more later.

Or do what so many do - throw a fast ball and call it a curve, or a drop, or a (Daddy, what did I just throw?) pitch.