What would you do?

[marriard]

someone in a few recent posts said "side arm is irrelevant does not exist" how ever if your wrist is out side your elbow, it's an illegal pitch, game over. call em or forget em

Just because 'sidearm' is not defined as a term in the rule book doesn't mean it is not labeled that for ease of description (just as 'change up' is not defined in the rule book either but we all know one when we see one).

That said, what was stated is that that the rules says "the hand shall be below the hip and the wrist not farther from the body than the elbow."

The "below the hip" is extremely relevant in this case. You can argue that part of the wrist is inside the elbow in your images if you draw a line straight down from the inside of the bend to the wrist - or more to the point it is extremely hard to determine one way or another.

What you can say in your images is that the release is below the hip and satisfies that part of the rule. With a windmill action there is no way I can see to release the ball at hip level without a major bend in the elbow away from the body. At least no way I tried that would physically work.

 

[1fingeredknuckler]

Just because 'sidearm' is not defined as a term in the rule book doesn't mean it is not labeled that for ease of description (just as 'change up' is not defined in the rule book either but we all know one when we see one).

That said, what was stated is that that the rules says "the hand shall be below the hip and the wrist not farther from the body than the elbow."

The "below the hip" is extremely relevant in this case. You can argue that part of the wrist is inside the elbow in your images if you draw a line straight down from the inside of the bend to the wrist - or more to the point it is extremely hard to determine one way or another.

What you can say in your images is that the release is below the hip and satisfies that part of the rule. With a windmill action there is no way I can see to release the ball at hip level without a major bend in the elbow away from the body. At least no way I tried that would physically work.

They are not my images, you can see where they came from ,and unless i have double vision, the wrist is further than the elbow , i'm not sure what your looking at, he brought them to me for the sole purpose of as is,,can't have it both ways. do you want it real close so it can be excused or does it have to be flagrant to be IP.

This is getting away from the real issue as originally started which often happens here, i probably will not respond any more as it can not be solved here anyway,,, my whole issue to begin with, was it IP, why, what shows it, there are as many people who saw it live that say it's not,, If it was, there needs to be some accountability going forward, if other teams were subjected to the so called ILP, what were those officials not seeing, , i really don't believe this was a professionally handled incident.. I have seen other officials go to the person and explain what they are doing wrong, if they were warned by 2 officials the day before, apparently these game officials went with a memory in place, not real professional. There are people that teach the "cup of water "as you pull down, in order to do that your wrist is extended, however it finishes below the hip, and the hand can sweep across the front of the body or up,, "THAT IS NOT ILLEGAL" you are in pull down mode, If you want to straight arm or bowling ball it you want get much spin or be a quality pitcher.

 

[1fingeredknuckler]

Here is where the 1st call was made

 

[Sparky Guy]

Forget about the term sidearm, it is irrelevant as it pertains to the rule.

Most likely the rule in question here is NFHS 6.2.3.b (same in ASA) ..the hand shall be below the hip and the wrist not farther from the body than the elbow.

This pitcher has a tendency to pull her non-pivot foot to her left followed by her hips. The video is not great, but when she does that, it gives the appearance of an inverted "V" on her throwing side which would indicate the wrist is further away from the body than the elbow. Is it a ticky tacky rule? Maybe, but it is still the rule. It was probably put into place to keep pitchers from inching their way up closer to a side arm delivery, but if you just stated "no side arm" allowed, how different do you think the enforcement would be then?

It looks like she was trying to throw some type of curve ball. Every time her arm came out and away from her hip she got called for the IP. Was she REAL bad with it? Nope. Someone who knew someone at the State level got in their ear and convinced them she was illegal.

As you said earlier. Someone told the umps to call it. Otherwise nothing would have happened and the game would have been left in the player's hands not the officials off of the field.

 

[David Carter]

Here is a look at a famous pitcher. Going strictly by the rules my guess would be this is illegal. I saw this exactly same delivery at our sectional championships this weekend, most girls that throw an aggressive good curve ball have this delivery. Again I am not even sure the girls in the video was illegal. My biggest point was as an UMPIRE you have to go by the rules and first answer the question should be is it illegal, if as an umpire you watch it and think it is illegal then you are 100% correct to call it now on the other hand if you do not see a violation you can't just call it because the TD told you too, that was my only point.

I would have been in on discussion more but was at San Antonio PONY sectionals were the Tri-City Terminators (14U) won their second consecutive sectional championship, congrats to the girls and all their hard work!!

 

[MTR]

Just because 'sidearm' is not defined as a term in the rule book doesn't mean it is not labeled that for ease of description (just as 'change up' is not defined in the rule book either but we all know one when we see one).

But a "change up" isn't an IP. And "side arm" isn't the violation. As we have seen here, it is quite easy to violate this rule WITHOUT throwing side arm. It is not a valid description of the violation.

My biggest point was as an UMPIRE you have to go by the rules and first answer the question should be is it illegal, if as an umpire you watch it and think it is illegal then you are 100% correct to call it now on the other hand if you do not see a violation you can't just call it because the TD told you too, that was my only point.

Most times an IP is called it isn't the first time the umpire sees it. It is not uncommon for an umpire to see something once that makes them think about it. Umpires are also told that if you have to think about it, don't call it until you are sure. Unless the umpire can come to the conclusion that what was seen is definitely illegal, they shouldn't call it. Just because something looks strange or different doesn't make it illegal. Umpires are taught to not to go "looking" for an IP, but call it when they see it. For as much as we know, these umpires may have never made that call, but were informed that it is an IP and they are expected to call that given action an IP if they see it. A standard response of an umpire when told they should look for this or that should be, "when I see a violation, I will call the violation". It is almost humorous how often an umpire is "reminded" by a coach about what is illegal only to have their own team be the one to violate the rule.

But it doesn't make any difference. Unless the direction is unsafe or grossly unfair, you still follow the direction of the TD/UIC.

 

[CycloneSoftball22]

But a "change up" isn't an IP. And "side arm" isn't the violation. As we have seen here, it is quite easy to violate this rule WITHOUT throwing side arm. It is not a valid description of the violation.



Most times an IP is called it isn't the first time the umpire sees it. It is not uncommon for an umpire to see something once that makes them think about it. Umpires are also told that if you have to think about it, don't call it until you are sure. Unless the umpire can come to the conclusion that what was seen is definitely illegal, they shouldn't call it. Just because something looks strange or different doesn't make it illegal. Umpires are taught to not to go "looking" for an IP, but call it when they see it. For as much as we know, these umpires may have never made that call, but were informed that it is an IP and they are expected to call that given action an IP if they see it. A standard response of an umpire when told they should look for this or that should be, "when I see a violation, I will call the violation". It is almost humorous how often an umpire is "reminded" by a coach about what is illegal only to have their own team be the one to violate the rule.

But it doesn't make any difference. Unless the direction is unsafe or grossly unfair, you still follow the direction of the TD/UIC.

Or...You just call the game according to the rules. That is how you expect the teams to play , right?

 

[1fingeredknuckler]

Just because 'sidearm' is not defined as a term in the rule book doesn't mean it is not labeled that for ease of description (just as 'change up' is not defined in the rule book either but we all know one when we see one).

That said, what was stated is that that the rules says "the hand shall be below the hip and the wrist not farther from the body than the elbow."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wonder if any one came tell me where the wrist and elbow are here in the video below, ,as the rule states ,and what is being shown here?

I assume that everyone on the SIDEARM WAGON will say this is legal??


Watch Episode 81 - Tips From Bill Hillhouse - The Fastpitch ... Video | Break.com


I think some umpires need to attend a clinic other than their own, and some highly paid exexutives need to re write the pitching rules

And it is a rule interpretation, not a judgement call

 

[abbygale]

I've got the game on dvr and on the illegal pitches her hand/wrist is coming thru above the level of her elbow. On my recording, I'm surprised she got away with as many as she did. When her hand came thru even or below her elbow there was no call. I thought he did a good job and I don't have a dog in the race.

 

[bucket pinata]

Looks like a duck, walks like a duck. just a simpleton who watched that whole game and about 5 of the calls were so side arm she threw the ball about 4 feet outside the outside batters box . all I know It did not look like anything close to a normal delivery and even my 11 year old DD pitcher saw one pitch and said that looks sidearm. I do agree either call it or not that's not fair to any player or team. Go ahead and legalize it, I really see no advantage in doing it.