Banned Bats - ASA?

[SoCal_Dad]

Warning, went off the deep end here. True. Long response. Mucho info, so okay.

... And any difference would be minimal since production methods are rather limited with wood.
The difference is in the wood itself. Wood bats are made out of pine, ash, maple and hickory. For any given species, there are also different levels of quality (e.g. grain pattern). They both affect the price and performance of wood bats.

Of course, by now, they would be using bamboo which provides a little more pop per ounce, but also holds up better.
Bamboo is a grass, not wood. Bamboo bats are actually a laminate and their weight/performance can vary greatly. You need a performance limit if you allow laminate bats.

So let's move back to the wood-level performing bats, have a safe ball and see who can hit and who cannot. But that will never fly and simply because people in this country want to see power and dramatic long-distance home runs and get bored with small ball. BTW, you also didn't have the same type of slapping you do now.
I don't have a problem with scaling back bat performance and favor safer balls. I only objected to making girls swing heavy wood bats.

They have been tested for FP & the NCAA has looked into them also. The impact with a player is less and supposedly mean the difference between a bad headache and a fractured skull. Good Yet, the FP community is still dragging their feet. Precisely who is the FP community that is dragging their feet? Why? Because these balls were developed in part to eliminate the accidental home runs.
Do you have any supporting material FP is dragging their feet and this is the reason?

In the SP game, there were many doubters thinking that the .52/300 was a "mush" ball. Right up until TeamUSA member Brian Wegman jokingly pulled out his wood bat in Cincinnati and promptly hit one beyond the lights over 310' away. Sort of killed the theory that the ball wouldn't travel. So, those who can hit will, those who cannot need to learn. That's not very impressive when you consider the COR was raised 18% from .44 to .52 and wood bats are not nearly as big a drop from non-wood bats.

Been there, done that. But LONG ago, back in the early 70's...
Challenge was for current day since you think it's not hard, ancient history aside.

I do know that and not just from bat inspections. OTOH, the older bats work better with the newer balls which is why you see some of the SP people holding onto bats longer. How old? What type of bat? There was speculation harder metal bats would work better than the softer composites.

But many people do, don't know which buys more, FP or SP. And you can see by the posts on all boards, including this one, how much emphasis is placed on upgrading bats to give the player more pop.
That's not going to stop - manufacturers will still hype their products and people will still try to take a shortcut to playing better.

If you have been paying attention over the years, I'm very supportive of ASA's bat testing and standards, but it is all about the balance between the game, competition and money, there is no way around those issues. ... I don't blame ASA any more than the manufacturers that not only cheat but enable others to do the same. How? The companies seem to have settled down the last few years, but I only see that as a result of tighter specs.

And again, if the weak-minded of this country weren't so infatuated and taken by little gimmicks that make you "run faster, jump higher" (wasn't that Keds? PF Flyers), ... Again, my issue isn't with ASA, but with the community in general.

We're well aware of your disdain for the community, but we're not the ones making the rules - ASA appointed delegates are making the rules. Your rant fails to address the issue of ASA seemingly loosening bat standards while you're in favor of making them more restrictive.

 

[MTR]

... And any difference would be minimal since production methods are rather limited with wood.
The difference is in the wood itself. Wood bats are made out of pine, ash, maple and hickory. For any given species, there are also different levels of quality (e.g. grain pattern). They both affect the price and performance of wood bats.

I understand the point of the different woods, but I was referring to the method of productions. IOW, there is no adding internal level or creating trampoline effects using multiple layers, etc. No rolling or extended/shortened break-in periods, just a piece of wood lathed to specs. Of course, density and flexibility are always on the table depending on the material and processing, but their production will be more player provided than affected by the equipment.

Of course, by now, they would be using bamboo which provides a little more pop per ounce, but also holds up better.
Bamboo is a grass, not wood. Bamboo bats are actually a laminate and their weight/performance can vary greatly. You need a performance limit if you allow laminate bats.

Yes, the plant is a grass which grows and develops woody stems, and are basically pressed wood. I used to have a video of the bamboo bat production. I'm sure it is out there. Thing is, they are less expensive than the present metal/composite bats by hundreds, last longer than wood and will not weigh any more than what is already out there. There are ASA-approved bamboo bats on the market. Oh, BTW, this also resolves the "not enough wood in the world" argument about returning to wood bats.

They have been tested for FP & the NCAA has looked into them also. The impact with a player is less and supposedly mean the difference between a bad headache and a fractured skull. Good Yet, the FP community is still dragging their feet. Precisely who is the FP community that is dragging their feet? Why? Because these balls were developed in part to eliminate the accidental home runs.
Do you have any supporting material FP is dragging their feet and this is the reason?

Of course, the "reason" is my opinion, but why wouldn't they move to a safer ball that still travels the distance if available? It isn't like this ball just appeared, it has been out there in the labs for 5-6 years now.

That's not very impressive when you consider the COR was raised 18% from .44 to .52 and wood bats are not nearly as big a drop from non-wood bats.

Really? Think can do that? I doubt that I could, but I'm not a hitter like Brian, never have been. But I never said anything about being impressive, just dispelling the belief that the ball wouldn't travel if hit properly.

Been there, done that. But LONG ago, back in the early 70's...
Challenge was for current day since you think it's not hard, ancient history aside.

No, the challenge is to show where I stated hitting a FP ball is not hard. And I know it is ancient history, but none of us were playing for glory or financial reward or to please our parents, we were playing because we enjoyed the game and the competition.

I do know that and not just from bat inspections. OTOH, the older bats work better with the newer balls which is why you see some of the SP people holding onto bats longer. How old? What type of bat? There was speculation harder metal bats would work better than the softer composites.

Don't understand where you are going, but I was referring to the new bats being produced for the new ball. Presently, they are only allowed in SP, but suspect these too would change for FP is the ball is changed. When ASA proposed allowing the hotter bats with the newer balls, the president of Combat sat in the front row and told them that the newer, "hotter" bats (being produced for SP) would not perform as well as the older, previously banned or non-approved bats would simply because the bats were manufactured based on the newer standards of the ball. If memory serves me correctly, some of the former Team USA Olympic players had an older bat or two (legal) in their bag for some tournaments (not referring to ISF's old bat standards).

That's not going to stop - manufacturers will still hype their products and people will still try to take a shortcut to playing better.

And that, IMO, is part of the problem that has in the long run, helped the players, but hurt the game because of the over-bearing rules and regulations that such actions have brought us.

And again, if the weak-minded of this country weren't so infatuated and taken by little gimmicks that make you "run faster, jump higher" (wasn't that Keds? PF Flyers)

Thank you

 

[SoCal_Dad]

(bamboo) are less expensive than the present metal/composite bats by hundreds, similar in price to bats with comparable performance - Strike 1!
last longer than wood Red herring alert! It's less durable than present bats - Strike 2!
and will not weigh any more than what is already out there. BS bamboo is only -5/-6 - Strike 3, you're out!

... but why wouldn't they move to a safer ball that still travels the distance if available? It isn't like this ball just appeared, it has been out there in the labs for 5-6 years now.
I've asked SoCal ASA about it for FP and haven't gotten a response. Our SP Commissioner said "There is some bounce but not too much."

But I never said anything about being impressive, just dispelling the belief that the ball wouldn't travel if hit properly. It was a carny / con man stunt - he substituted a bat that people thought would make it more difficult when it actually made it easier to hit the new ball far. smh

No, the challenge is to show where I stated hitting a FP ball is not hard. You minimized it with "But it is supposed to be hard and played through work and practice, not by updating the bat every year."

Don't understand where you are going, but I was referring to the new bats being produced for the new ball. Presently, they are only allowed in SP, but suspect these too would change for FP is the ball is changed.
Your story doesn't match ASA's story or what has transpired. The new 2013 bat standard was based on ASA's survey of swing speeds being slower than what the certification was using, so they lowered the speed in the test and calculations. Based on swing speed surveys last year, ASA passed allowing the 2013 mark bats in Men's FP, Boy's FP and Men's MP this year without a change in the ball. According to Ajaywill, ASA will be surveying more FP swing speeds this year and could allow the 2013 mark bats in Women's / Girl's FP next year without a change in ball.

When ASA proposed allowing the hotter bats with the newer balls, the president of Combat sat in the front row and told them that the newer, "hotter" bats (being produced for SP) would not perform as well as the older, previously banned or non-approved bats would simply because the bats were manufactured based on the newer standards of the ball. If memory serves me correctly, some of the former Team USA Olympic players had an older bat or two (legal) in their bag for some tournaments (not referring to ISF's old bat standards).
There are different things here that can lead to some misunderstanding, so let's be very clear:
- The 2013 mark bats designed for the NEW BALL would not perform as well as the older hottest bats (banned / grandfathered) with the OLD BALL, which justified ASA allowing them to be used prior to completely switching over to the new ball. I expect players kept 1-2 older bats for games with the OLD BALL.
- The 2013 mark bats designed for the NEW BALL outperform the older hottest bats with the NEW BALL.
- If they ran the banned bats through the 2013 test, some would pass it and become approved again. Additionally, manufacturers could design bats for the OLD BALL that would pass the new 2013 standards, but not the current ones.

And that, IMO, is part of the problem that has in the long run, helped the players, but hurt the game because of the over-bearing rules and regulations that such actions have brought us.
So you want to "dumb down" the rules and regs by reverting to wood bats across the board. ASA overcomplicated it with the 2013 standard, especially since it is not tied to a new ball and everyone else is going in the opposite direction.

The ball is/was the right approach. According to our SP commissioner, the new ball is "awesome" and "takes the altered/hot bats out of play." It is also safer.

Fortunately, your original suggestion of going back to wood bats is just a pipe dream for you. Wood bats do provide some benefits for good players that want to become elite hitters, but requiring them would drive people away to other sanctions. Even if you started at FP's top (e.g. ISF and NCAA) and worked your way down, you'd never get everyone to switch over to wood bats.