Softball Slider???

[CoachCeetar]

Okay, fair enough. How about Aaron Bummer, the MLB leader in exit velocity and barrel percentage combined. His favorite pitch is his sweeper, 82 mph. Check out his pitch movement profile.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/aaron-bummer-607481?stats=statcast-r-pitching-mlb

singular example though..

of 41,087 curveballs across MLB, there were 5324 whiffs, 34.4 Hard Hit, 7.8% barrel per batted ball event.

of 38,227 sweepers across MLB, there were 5411 whiffs, 28.7 Hard Hit, 7.1% Barrel/BBE.

of 100,381 sinkers, 6301 whiffs, 43.2 hard hit, 6.7% Barrel/BBE


Is that a good breakout? I'm not even sure.



of 10,427 pitches with Vertical Movement w/o gravity greater than 20": 1458 whiffs, 40.4 Hard Hit, 11.6 Barrel/BBE
of 7217 pitches with Vertical Movement w/o gravity less than -15, 962 whiffs, 34.6 Hard Hit%, 6.1 Barrel/BBE.

of 69522 pitches with movement away from the batter greater than 15, 8431 whiffs, 34.9 Hard Hit, 6.5 Barrel/bbe
of 52497 pitches with movement towards the batter greater than 15, 4734 whiffs, 37.6 Hard Hit, 5.4 Barrel


Does seem like it's a little harder to square up a pitch moving sideways versus up and down?

The stats and graphs they have on these pitchers are insane. And is that guy's last name really Bummer? That had to be rough growing up with that name.

You could spend hours every day digging into this trying to find nuggets of information, scouting, value, etc. And teams probably do have a half dozen guys basically doing just that. It's wild really.

 

[cnardone]

That may be pending the type of hitting mechanics being used.

The point you are making think is important because it does go along with pitch locations.
Of Which certain locations may be better against certain hitting mechanics. Or vice versa.

Will add that changing speeds is such a critical Factor that it needs to be included.

It is pretty universal. I believe we have to be careful leveraging MLB learnings across all levels of softball, but I believe pitch shapes and effectiveness is a safe transfer. MLB pitchers that has only side to side movement tend to struggle against opposite hitters but are very effective R/R or L/L. Down movement with the horizontal makes a huge difference in effectiveness. Beyond that for guys that don't have top shelf stuff, many struggle to get out opposite side hitters until they come up with a pitch that runs down and away to the batter, either a good two seemer with lots of arm side run or a good change with lots of fade.

@CoachCeetar
I see the effectiveness of the sweeper, but I don't believe that all of the guys in that chart have only side to side movement.

 

[Hillhouse]

Since only two seams bite the air, its velocity is a bit higher than a four seam fastball.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's not too common to see a comment like this, usually the 2 vs. 4 seam debate is about pitch movement. I've never agreed with that comment either, that 2 seam pitches move the same as 4 seam. I've experimented with this myself, with my own pitches and didn't find this to be true.

 

[CoachCeetar]

@CoachCeetar
I see the effectiveness of the sweeper, but I don't believe that all of the guys in that chart have only side to side movement.

yeah, pitch classification is tricky. Sweepers are classified based on mostly whether the pitcher themselves call it a sweep(ing slider) or a curveball, so they could be either really. Found 13,563 sweepers with less than 5" of break away from the hitter. Of course, it's not going to separate bad execution of an individual pitch versus mis-classified or poorly-classified pitchers, etc.

Makes it hard to really group them with confidence. and with softball the break is going to be less so you (probably) have to be more elite with it, otherwise you're just missing the sweet spot for the slightly less sweet spot, it won't get in on the hands/down to the end of the bat as much.

 

[sluggers]

Yikes...

You must be aware of the arm slot whenever you start comparing baseball and softball pitching

The arm slot is the angle of the arm when the ball is released. Baseball pitcher arm slots vary from 30 degrees (overhand), 90 degrees (side arm), to 140 degrees (Chad Bradford) and all points in between.

On the release of a fastball, the ball's spin axis is generally perpendicular to the arm slot. So, every fastball in MLB has some movement because the spin is never 12-6 or 6-12.. (The 12-6 spin is a curveball. The 6-12 spin is the famous rising fastball.)

In softball by rule, the arm slot of every pitcher is the same--vertical. This makes it very difficult to throw movement pitches.

1. A baseball slider is thrown with bullet spin. There are multiple many videos on youtube. (Tim McCarver describes Bob Gibson's slider, if you're interested.)

2. The softball curveball usually has a spin of 2-8. (The pitcher is attempting to get 3-9 spin on the ball, but it's very difficult.) So, the softball curve is *NOTHING* like the baseball slider.

3. 2-seam vs. 4-seam. There is nothing to suggest that anyone gets any more movement on any pitch by simply rotating the ball in the hand of the pitcher. You have to apply different finger pressure for the two pitches, which means that you a

 

[CoachCeetar]

Yikes...

You must be aware of the arm slot whenever you start comparing baseball and softball pitching

we're not, we're talking hitting and physics.

 

[cnardone]

2. The softball curveball usually has a spin of 2-8. (The pitcher is attempting to get 3-9 spin on the ball, but it's very difficult.) So, the softball curve is *NOTHING* like the baseball slider.

 

[El Oso]

So in the video, we have Barry Bonds saying a softball curve ball is a slider in baseball. I'll defer to him.

 

[ArmWhip]

A baseball slider is thrown with bullet spin.

The baseball slider is rarely thrown with 'pure' bullet spin, just go to Baseball Savant, type in slider and look at the actual spin. Here is Chris Sale's profile as an example.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/chris-sale-519242?stats=statcast-r-pitching-mlb

The softball curveball usually has a spin of 2-8. (The pitcher is attempting to get 3-9 spin on the ball, but it's very difficult.) So, the softball curve is *NOTHING* like the baseball slider.

Using the clock image to define a pitch's spin is limiting, it's 2 dimensional and always assumes a strictly vertical-horizontal spin axis. How do you define a 3-9 curveball with a spin axis that is titled 30 degrees forward toward the plate? Or a 12-6 drop with the axis angled to the right by 30 degrees?

 

[sluggers]

The baseball slider is rarely thrown with 'pure' bullet spin, just go to Baseball Savant, type in slider and look at the actual spin. Here is Chris Sale's profile as an example.

I didn't say "pure" bullet spin. My piont: Sliders use a different subset of physics than curves, drops, and traditional 6-12 riseballs.

As to using the clock...would you prefer a polar coordinate system? Or should we define everything in terms of pitch, yaw, and roll?

Due to the fixed arm slot and the age range of 99% of the pitchers, the clock is more than enough for softball.