Why all the angst?

[Indiana]

Are you saying that batting average and other subjective stats are meaningless because of a potentially biased scorekeeper and the inherent subjectivity of scoring?

Let's ask this:

Let's say you are having tryouts for your travel team. You are allowed to have the official team stats for every player who shows up from their previous travel team. Would consider that information to be useless?

I would not pick my team based on that. But I'd sure be interested in it. If three girls from the Central Park Stingers show up, and one batted .400 with 20 extra-base hits, and the other two hit .250 with 5 extra-base hits, I would consider that in their evaluation. I don't care who kept score for them.

No, I"m not saying that at all. I love stats; heck I'm an accountant - I love any and all numbers. I'm just pondering here, wondering if there is any way that player stats could be seen in a light in which the variables of scorekeeper opinion and level of competition are neutralized. I like the OBA plus ROE idea. I also like slugging. I do think that statistics are a challenge when looking at youth ball, as opposed to statistics for professional baseball - simply because youth players are growing and developing - and with them, their game is also changing.

 

[Scorekeeper]

As you get higher in level this may be the case. At the younger ages it's whoever will volunteer to take the job.

Not true! The coach is always going to be the one who chooses the person s/he’s going to get his/her numbers from. Some volunteer may keep score in the stands and post numbers on the WEB, but that doesn’t mean those numbers are what the coach is using, and that’s all that really matters.

 

[Scorekeeper]

I score for my daughter's team using the Gamechanger app. All of my decisions are almost instantly sent out to those fans following. Occasionally after a game or inning someone will come up to me and ask about a hit vs. FC vs. ROE and I explain that in the moment I used my best judgement. There have been times after a game when reviewing the plays and stats I will make a change but it is rare. I have had to take "hits" away from my daughter because the were ROE. I guess there are those that bend the rules, but for the good of the team it doesn't make sense to do it. The coach ultimitely uses the "eye test" to determine playing time.

I’m betting that if you were to hold a gun to your coach’s head, you’d find out somehow there are some numbers being used, even if they’re only a guess or approximation.

 

[Scorekeeper]

I see parental bias in all parents. It is there whether you see it or not, and it is natural. The bias being over-the-top is another story. I don't see "over-the-top" vociferous bias much on our team.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I don’t mean to imply I’d never seen parental bias, but rather that I didn’t see “normal” parental bias as being very meaningful. IOW, the coach takes it as a “given” that there’s gonna be some bias and mentally makes an adjustment for it.

 

[Scorekeeper]

Maybe a trio with NO voting. Simply average across their stats. It should reduce the problem some.

That could be an answer, but since its tough getting even one SK for some teams, getting 3 would seem to me to be impossible in many cases.

 

[Scorekeeper]

What comes to mind is charging the ball. You can sit back and not make an error or charge the ball and risk an error in order to make an out. Same with batting, keep doing what your doing and you will be a better hitter.

Do you mean as coaches you’re working with the players to do those things, so if there are mistakes when they’re tried it really doesn’t matter in the stats?

 

[CoogansBluff]

I'm just pondering here, wondering if there is any way that player stats could be seen in a light in which the variables of scorekeeper opinion and level of competition are neutralized. I like the OBA plus ROE idea. I also like slugging. I do think that statistics are a challenge when looking at youth ball, as opposed to statistics for professional baseball - simply because youth players are growing and developing - and with them, their game is also changing.

I can't think of ways in which all that can be neutralized or leveled in travel ball, where you see a greater disparity in competition from tournament/game/at-bat to the next than you do in pro sports. This problem became very evident in my DD's middle school season last year. We had 8-9 pretty good teams in the league, but 2-3 that were terrible. If you happen to hit some fly balls against the dregs, it could make a huge difference in your stats in a short 15-game season.

Earlier in this thread, people have said that stats are only as valuable as the scorekeeper. But the more I think of it, the stats are really only as good as the person interpreting them. Just one simple example would be the ability to understand that stats after 10 games are not nearly as important as stats after 60. Some coaches overreact to what happens over a two-game stretch on Saturday. I'd rather have a mediocre but decent scorekeeper with a coach who knows stats than have a professional scorekeeper with a coach who doesn't know how to see what is important and what isn't. So in effect, perhaps a coach must make his own subjective neutralizing and leveling based on his experience and understanding of the game and of statistics.

 

[JoeKC]

The original poster's observation that "lots of angry discussion" ensues when any post is made regarding the use of stats. While statistics can be misused, they are a viable and useful resource in the games of softball and baseball, and new tools like iScore and GameChanger have increased their usefulness in real time. That being said, nothing will replace the minds and acumen of good coaches.

I believe one of the biggest mistakes most make when viewing stats has to do with the use of absolute numbers, rather than trends (short and long term) from average. Knowing someone hit .750 during a tournament makes everyone feel good, but is really not very valuable to the coach. He/she knows that athlete is "on" that weekend and will position her in the lineup accordingly. What is more important in my mind, is that over the past several weeks, an athlete that tweaked her swing was hitting .275 for the season is now hitting .350 during the past 3 weeks, and is hitting mostly line drives and gappers. That is a usable number for all involved to mark progress.

The ability to draw on competitors previous at bats for tendancies within the same game or from previous games is a great resource in my opinion. I don't care necessarily if an athletes average is .200 or .450 against us, but I do care that she tends to pull the ball, and or hits mostly fly balls. iScore and Gamechanger make these realtime pieces of information possible and can be a nice piece of the puzzle for a coach calling pitches during the game.

I've kept score for my daughter's teams for many years, and try very hard to not see any player numbers or faces when scoring. As Sgt. Joe Friday famously said... "just the facts" is the mindset one must have to minimize bias. I also ask the opinion of other coaches in the dugout if I have any question on a "judgement" call. We coaches also discuss any potential issues after the game or tournament, and have went back and corrected something if our opinions 'matured" with time, and after the "heat of the battle".

It takes work and commitment to make softball status as useful and valuable as they can be. The first effort must be in finding the right person who is committed to doing it as right as humanly possible. The second is to be very clear to all involved about the coaches use of the data and philosophy on it's usefulness to all involved

 

[Scorekeeper]

You don't need a good scorekeeper for stats to hold some meaning. A line drive in the gap is a hit. There's no debate about 90 percent of plays. A good scorekeeper is valuable, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to do a decent job if trained. If you are a coach and want to be fair about doing your lineup and honestly assess players on a competitive team, you must keep stats, or you're doing a disservice to yourself and the players. Not saying that stats are the bottom line. But to ignore them is irrational if not foolish.

Succinct and to the point. Very nice indeed.

 

[Scorekeeper]

No need for angst - just look at the objective stats, as Sluggers mentioned. Or just look at on base percentage and RBIs. Hit vs error is subjective not only from the scorekeeper's point of view but also from the level of competition. You could be playing a team whose center fielder is a gazelle and plucks everything out of thin air, or you could be playing a team whose CF wants nothing whatsoever to do with the ball - it makes a big difference in hits, flyouts and ROE's.

Well, I don’t have a problem with looking at data points that are as objective as possible. Here’s what I’ve come up with for objective stats. What other stats do you see as being objective?

http://www.infosports.com/scorekeeper/images/objbatting.pdf