What would you do?

[WaSpeed02]

Pretty obvious isn't it?

Thanks

Funny instructors wouldn't study their own presentations to abide.

I agree with you, 1finger. Apparently, the rule (as written, not merely interpreted) makes everything but slow pitch illegal.

 

[Lance Charger]

Hello to all and thanks for having me. First post ever. I was at the game and the semi the day before. As a WIAA and ASA umpire, I had no problem with the Kenosha pitchers delivery. As a pitching coach I did, but it was not with her delivery. It was with her follow through. I would never teach her style of follow through because I think its an arm wrecker, but that is her business. I point this out because I think this girl was the first HS pitcher in America to be called for throwing 13 "illegal follow though". As you know, an umpire sometimes has to "sell" a call. It was easy (to the untrained eye) to sell the IP call because her FT included a violent elbow out and up and away from the body.Her upper body many times twisted to the left in a wild crazy manner. Again, that is her business. One could speculate that the HP ump got caught up in her motion, but I'm not so sure......Stay tuned.

 

[MTR]

I think I see your point. Per ASA, section 3,E states "..and the wrist not farther from the body than the elbow".

If you are using good Internal Rotation, using a bent elbow, palm to the sky at 3:00 o'clock and whipping and the rotating the forearm through 6 oclock release, it's pretty difficult, if not impossible, to keep the wrist no farther from the body than the elbow. In fact the only way to technically achieve this is to have a completely locked elbow, which we all know is not the proper way to pitch and kills the arm whip action and velocity of the pitch.

While I am sure the intent of this rule is to prevent an exaggerated side arm or submarine type of pitch, one could argue that almost all high level pitches break the above cited rule and are technically illegal pitches. Or at least you got me thinking twice about this rule.....

Did you notice the early version of the rule where there was not to be a jerky or snap release? You think this may be because the rules were meant to deter the "whip action" that provides additional velocity to the pitch?

Hello to all and thanks for having me. First post ever. I was at the game and the semi the day before. As a WIAA and ASA umpire, I had no problem with the Kenosha pitchers delivery. As a pitching coach I did, but it was not with her delivery. It was with her follow through. I would never teach her style of follow through because I think its an arm wrecker, but that is her business. I point this out because I think this girl was the first HS pitcher in America to be called for throwing 13 "illegal follow though". As you know, an umpire sometimes has to "sell" a call. It was easy (to the untrained eye) to sell the IP call because her FT included a violent elbow out and up and away from the body.Her upper body many times twisted to the left in a wild crazy manner. Again, that is her business. One could speculate that the HP ump got caught up in her motion, but I'm not so sure......Stay tuned.

From what I see in the video, what makes it look illegal (and it seems when it was called) is when she opened up her hips and pulled to the left with a slight dip of her shoulder, giving the appearance, if not actually, making the wrist farther away from the body than the elbow. Remember, the rule is not the relation of the wrist to the elbow, but the wrist and elbow to the body.

Would I have called it? Don't know, I'm not sitting behind the plate and even the video cannot provide the angle from which the PU is seeing the pitcher's delivery. But it would have to be quite obvious to me and hopefully any umpire prior to making an IP call.

 

[1fingeredknuckler]

MTR///Remember, the rule is not the relation of the wrist to the elbow, but the wrist and elbow to the body.

Lance is getting me a rule book tonight for me or another official tomorrow will, so i can have the rule in writing,, " what others read to me" "the wrist shall not be further from the body than the elbow" end quote

Lance is coaching tonight one of my grand daughters he asked to play, thus the connection.

 

[NVfishing]

Hello to all and thanks for having me. First post ever. I was at the game and the semi the day before. As a WIAA and ASA umpire, I had no problem with the Kenosha pitchers delivery. As a pitching coach I did, but it was not with her delivery. It was with her follow through. I would never teach her style of follow through because I think its an arm wrecker, but that is her business. I point this out because I think this girl was the first HS pitcher in America to be called for throwing 13 "illegal follow though". As you know, an umpire sometimes has to "sell" a call. It was easy (to the untrained eye) to sell the IP call because her FT included a violent elbow out and up and away from the body.Her upper body many times twisted to the left in a wild crazy manner. Again, that is her business. One could speculate that the HP ump got caught up in her motion, but I'm not so sure......Stay tuned.

I don't understand an umpire having to sell a call? It's either a good call or a bad call. Was the pitch illegal or was it a screwball with an outside in delivery? If it was a screw ball I'd worry more about the pitcher stepping outside the pitching lane than the forced inside out action of the follow through.

 

[NVfishing]

Does someone have a better quality video to post of this night?

 

[Out in Left Field]

There are pictures here:

Visual Image Photography | Kenosha St Josephs vs Mineral Point | WISBG_13_F3158

Visual Image Photography | Kenosha St Josephs vs Mineral Point | WISBG_13_F3158

Coach said he could not see that, so he could not fix it. Right......

 

[MTR]

MTR///Remember, the rule is not the relation of the wrist to the elbow, but the wrist and elbow to the body.

Lance is getting me a rule book tonight for me or another official tomorrow will, so i can have the rule in writing,, " what others read to me" "the wrist shall not be further from the body than the elbow" end quote

Lance is coaching tonight one of my grand daughters he asked to play, thus the connection.

You've been told the rule repeatedly. Here are the big four from the book:

Here is the NCAA, which is more stringent than ASA & NFHS:

10.6.3 The pitched ball must be released underhand.
10.6.3.1 The hand must be below the hip.
10.6.3.2 The wrist must not be farther from the hip than the elbow.

ISF
Sec. 3. LEGAL DELIVERY.
a. The pitcher must not make any motion to pitch without immediately delivering the ball to the batter.
b. The pitcher must not use a pitching motion in which, after having the ball in both hands in the pitching position, he removes one hand from the ball, takes a backward and forward swing, and returns the ball to both hands in front of the body.
c. The pitcher must not use a windup in which there is a stop, or reversal, of the forward motion.
d. The pitcher must not make two revolutions of the arm on the windmill pitch. However, he may drop his arm to the side and to the rear before starting the windmill motion. This allows the arm to pass the hip twice.
e. The delivery must be an underhanded motion, with the hand below the hip and the wrist not farther from the body than the elbow

ASA
Section 3. LEGAL DELIVERY.
A. The pitcher must not make any motion to pitch without immediately delivering the ball to the batter.
B. The pitcher must not use a pitching motion in which, after bringing the hands together, the pitcher removes one hand from the ball, and returns the ball to both hands.
C. The pitcher must not make a stop or reversal of the forward motion after separating the hands.
D. The pitcher must not make two revolutions of the arm on the windmill pitch. A pitcher may drop the arm to the side and to the rear before starting the windmill motion.
E. The delivery must be an underhand motion with the hand below the hip and the wrist not farther from the body than the elbow.

NFHS
ART. 3 . . . A legal delivery shall be a pitched ball that is delivered to the batter with an underhand motion.
a. The release of the ball and the follow-through of the hand and wrist must be forward past the vertical line of the body.
b. The hand shall be below the hip and the wrist not farther from the body than the elbow.

 

[WaSpeed02]

and the wrist not farther from the body than the elbow.

Since that is the rule, then the only legal pitch would be one where the elbow would be locked by necessity. Any bend in the elbow would by definition bring the elbow into closer proximation to the body than the wrist. Therefore, all I/R pitches are technically illegal.

Am I misinterpreting the rule as written?

 

[1fingeredknuckler]

Does someone have a better quality video to post of this night?

Watch Episode 81 - Tips From Bill Hillhouse - The Fastpitch ... Video | Break.com

http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-discussions/14955-what-would-you-do-4.html

scroll down to the thumbnail grip by kempf

And it stems from the likes of this?