Pictures of pitchers feet

[mad hornet]

So we want to legalize an IP because umpires refuse to enforce the rules? Should we also legalize shaved bats also while we are at it?

apples and oranges. Shaved bats are a safety issue and the presence of a shaved bat can be proven and penalties for getting caught are stiff enough to prohibit their use in most cases. I don't think a pitcher leaping or crow hopping presents a safety issue to anyone.

Honestly I wouldn't care if it was a rule or not if it got enforced on a consistent basis - BUT IT IS NOT!!! Instead it is rarely enforced and when it is, it causes such an freaking ordeal for everyone involved.

I have gotten to where if I see an opposing pitcher crow hopping I won't even bother saying anything to anyone - and when someone says something to me about it during a game, I just hold my finger to my mouth and say nothing.

You end up screwing up your hitters because now they think the other team is cheating and getting away with it, I've had hitters intentionally beaned, you get parents and coaches conduct unbecoming, umpires turn on you for telling them to do their job, etc, etc, etc.

Never once has my pointing out an illegal pitcher resulted in anything positive for my team.

 

[ms244]

apples and oranges. Shaved bats are a safety issue and the presence of a shaved bat can be proven and penalties for getting caught are stiff enough to prohibit their use in most cases. I don't think a pitcher leaping or crow hopping presents a safety issue to anyone.

Honestly I wouldn't care if it was a rule or not if it got enforced on a consistent basis - BUT IT IS NOT!!! Instead it is rarely enforced and when it is, it causes such an freaking ordeal for everyone involved.

I have gotten to where if I see an opposing pitcher crow hopping I won't even bother saying anything to anyone - and when someone says something to me about it during a game, I just hold my finger to my mouth and say nothing.

You end up screwing up your hitters because now they think the other team is cheating and getting away with it, I've had hitters intentionally beaned, you get parents and coaches conduct unbecoming, umpires turn on you for telling them to do their job, etc, etc, etc.

Never once has my pointing out an illegal pitcher resulted in anything positive for my team.

So you allow an opposing team to break the rules and you don't care? For me it is and advantage, period. There is a reason why ASA and all the other U.S. fastpitch organizations deem it to be illegal.

Your comment on "Apples vs. Oranges" is true if you look at it from a safety aspect. I look it as a right vs. wrong aspect. Let me put it in a way that isn't safety related. So we should allow a runner leave the base early? We should allow a 16u player to play in 14u?

Which rules can another team break that is okay with you and which ones would you like to enforce? When you "pick and choose" then the game of softball looses.

 

[GOINGDEEP]

If the dang rule is in/on the books then enforce the rule, why are we being lenient on this one rule? All it does is create chaos. I'm just not getting it. The problem is that some call it, as they should, and some choose to look the other way.

This is what happens. Pitcher A plays mostly in GA and although she is illegal it never gets called. She then goes to a tourney in FL where she immediately gets called IP. She can't adjust over the weekend so it's a wasted trip for her and her team. So the coach has two options, don't go back to FL to play and just play where she WON'T get the IP, or choose to correct the IP for future play. And usually what happens is the coach says "forget changing her, she's tearing them up in GA".

To me the umpire associations are shooting themselves in the foot. Either change the rules, or enforce the ones we have now. Rules are not there so the umpire can pick and choose which one he likes and which ones he doesn't.

I'll tell ya another reason I don't care for these grey rules. It's just unfair. I taught my DD to pitch the correct legal way, because that's how the game should be played. If all physical components are equal between her and another pitcher, the illegal pitcher SHOULD have an advantage.

If the umps would come together and start calling these IP's, within a few years the number illegal pitchers would deminish greatly. The PC's would HAVE to start teaching legal mechanics or be out of a job. This should be such an easy fix if it would be handled properly.

Rant over.

 

[mad hornet]

So you allow an opposing team to break the rules and you don't care? For me it is and advantage, period. There is a reason why ASA and all the other U.S. fastpitch organizations deem it to be illegal.

Your comment on "Apples vs. Oranges" is true if you look at it from a safety aspect. I look it as a right vs. wrong aspect. Let me put it in a way that isn't safety related. So we should allow a runner leave the base early? We should allow a 16u player to play in 14u?

Which rules can another team break that is okay with you and which ones would you like to enforce? When you "pick and choose" then the game of softball looses.

You are missing the point of what I'm saying. Lack of enforcement is the problem! If illegal pitches were called consistently I would have absolutely no problem with it. In fact I would be happy because then I could be content coaching knowing we had officials doing their jobs.

And as far as that is concerned, I make darn sure that my pitchers are legal. But why as a coach should I have to tell an umpire how to do his/her job and then suffer the backlash? I am talking real world experience here (not moral absolutes) and it just ain't worth it.

How has it worked out for you when you point out an illegal pitcher to an umpire?

 

[smddad]

For me it is and advantage, period. There is a reason why ASA and all the other U.S. fastpitch organizations deem it to be illegal.

What exactly is their advantage? How much of an advantage is it? I've seen fireballers pitch legally an average pitchers pitch illegally. Who has the advantage? Also, why isn't the same rule in the books on the men's side of the game?

 

[MTR]

Every year the same thing. I agree, the rules should be called. And here are the issues that many do not understand:

1. It is not uncommon for umpires to be instructed at some tournaments, in some leagues, at some age levels, to NOT make the call. It isn't up to the umpire to disregard the wishes of the organization paying them.

2. Folks can sit on the sidelines, move around, obtain advantageous angle when umpires are pretty much limited as to where they can position themselves. I have often seen pitchers throw completely legal until there is a runner on base and once the umpire moves off the line, that pivot foot starts sliding forward off the PP. This is often negated when there is a 3rd umpire, but not every game has 3 umpires. I have seen a "coach" bend over to an eye-level below the top of his bucket to watch the pitcher and then start complaining because the umpire in the B position couldn't see the same leap he said he did and make an IP call.

3. Umpires have always been instructed to not guess an IP. IOW, don't go looking for a reason to call an IP, but call it when you see it. This was a specific direction offered in mid-season to the NCAA umpires in 2010. And while the calls became less frequent, there were still many more than in the past.

4. Regardless of the accuracy and consistency, the umpire takes a beating. Look at the referenced debacle in 2010. The coaches knew what was coming, they persevered a season with the calls. Well, some did, others didn't do too well. Yet with all the notice, the coaches still brought pitchers they knew were illegal to the circle and then played the unsuspecting idiot to the press when their pitchers were ruled illegal. Even the Talking Heads started the tournament showing on replay and explaining why the IP was called, but eventually picked up where the fans and coaches whine about how can this go on and it was ruining the game. Huh? Why wasn't anyone asking the coaches why they insisted on putting illegal pitchers on the PP?

However, umpires not wanting to rock the boat isn't new. Some umpires lose assignments when coaches complain to the assignors that the umpire calls too many IPs, even at the collegiate level. So, some umpires get more worried about a coaches support in tournament play and not call IPs all the time simply as a matter of survival, for them.

Understand, I do not support this. I'm a firm believer in calling it if you see it. But quite often the same people who insist on it being called are the ones who complain about it being called.

I also agree that if you were not awarding bases, more IPs would be called. There was a proposed change in ASA a couple years ago to eliminate the award of a base on the IP, but it never got support of any committee. For some reason, people in this country get off on being punitive toward others.

 

[Coachmom]

Every year the same thing. I agree, the rules should be called. And here are the issues that many do not understand:

1. It is not uncommon for umpires to be instructed at some tournaments, in some leagues, at some age levels, to NOT make the call. It isn't up to the umpire to disregard the wishes of the organization paying them.

2. Folks can sit on the sidelines, move around, obtain advantageous angle when umpires are pretty much limited as to where they can position themselves. I have often seen pitchers throw completely legal until there is a runner on base and once the umpire moves off the line, that pivot foot starts sliding forward off the PP. This is often negated when there is a 3rd umpire, but not every game has 3 umpires. I have seen a "coach" bend over to an eye-level below the top of his bucket to watch the pitcher and then start complaining because the umpire in the B position couldn't see the same leap he said he did and make an IP call.

3. Umpires have always been instructed to not guess an IP. IOW, don't go looking for a reason to call an IP, but call it when you see it. This was a specific direction offered in mid-season to the NCAA umpires in 2010. And while the calls became less frequent, there were still many more than in the past.

4. Regardless of the accuracy and consistency, the umpire takes a beating. Look at the referenced debacle in 2010. The coaches knew what was coming, they persevered a season with the calls. Well, some did, others didn't do too well. Yet with all the notice, the coaches still brought pitchers they knew were illegal to the circle and then played the unsuspecting idiot to the press when their pitchers were ruled illegal. Even the Talking Heads started the tournament showing on replay and explaining why the IP was called, but eventually picked up where the fans and coaches whine about how can this go on and it was ruining the game. Huh? Why wasn't anyone asking the coaches why they insisted on putting illegal pitchers on the PP?

However, umpires not wanting to rock the boat isn't new. Some umpires lose assignments when coaches complain to the assignors that the umpire calls too many IPs, even at the collegiate level. So, some umpires get more worried about a coaches support in tournament play and not call IPs all the time simply as a matter of survival, for them.

Understand, I do not support this. I'm a firm believer in calling it if you see it. But quite often the same people who insist on it being called are the ones who complain about it being called.

I also agree that if you were not awarding bases, more IPs would be called. There was a proposed change in ASA a couple years ago to eliminate the award of a base on the IP, but it never got support of any committee. For some reason, people in this country get off on being punitive toward others.

I understand all the points and agree...especially the final one about people in this country love being punitive!
Why in the men's game is leaping, crow hopping, allowed?
I don't understand the difference. if its a pitching advantage, why can't the women have that advantage as well? If its not an advantage and simply a style I still ask, why? Why different set of rules?

 

[RubberBiscuit]

Tell ya what - after my DD gets out of this sport if this isn't fixed I am not a fan anymore...

YES, that is the degree of disgust I have for this topic. AND I am proud of my black-n-white position on this.

I think we COULD be set up for a "perfect storm" in NCAA SB with all the "skippies" that I have seen on tv this year. (skippies = replants or crow-hoppers). I am starting to take note on all these illegal double-hitchers and the list is getting LONG.

With all these skippies getting away with it right now either NCAA will have to ignore the topic in the World Series or we will have IP chaos once again. Either way it pulls down the legit-ness of the sport. To the point where I would rather watch some other sport that is without such blatant ignorance for right/wrong.

My position is "who cares" on the leaping. I don't see any advantage with that. BUT stranglely enough that is the one I have seen get called this year on tv.....

My position on being a skippy, or crow-hopper, or replanter, is totally the opposite. This DOES give a pitcher an advantage. I have seen many a skippy try to pitch legally and they are noticeably less effective after that. Yes you can find this or that individual that could break the norm I am stating here but in general I think at least 80-90% of the skippies out there now would drop down a whole level of play if they had to pitch legally. (yes even after giving them time to readjust)

So NCAA SB you are put on notice this year. You better friggin not be setting up all these illegal pitchers for failure this coming World Series and ya better not be setting up all us "wanting-to-be-solid-loyal-SB" fans for this disgust too!

(Yes I know my threat here has no affect.....)

 

[cuzmail]

it seems the better she is throwing the more IP comments she hears from opposing parents and coaches.

I notice that too.
If DD is pitching that effectively, then she must be doing something illegal - right?

 

[MTR]

I understand all the points and agree...especially the final one about people in this country love being punitive!
Why in the men's game is leaping, crow hopping, allowed?

Leaping is, crow hopping is not (please understand, I'm talking about the rule, not whether it is called or not)

I don't understand the difference. if its a pitching advantage, why can't the women have that advantage as well? If its not an advantage and simply a style I still ask, why? Why different set of rules?

Men throw from above the waist, the women throw from below. Not talking ball location, but from where each draws their power. Men throw with the arm, with all the strength coming from the arm and mechanics of the delivery.

Women get the strength behind their pitch through their footwork and drive off the pitcher's plate.

ISF allows leaping for both. I was once told by a female NCAA rep that after 2010, they would probably look at changing the rule for the leap, but would like some science behind it (for health reasons) due to the anatomical differences between the genders. HER WORDS, NOT MINE!

I would have no problem eliminating the leap as a violation, but I just think that would lead to more claims of crow hopping, unfortunately, and then we start all over again. If I had my druthers, I'd put the pitchers at 46-50' with an 18' circle and let them do anything they want as long as the pitcher started the pitch with both feet in contact with the pitcher's plate and the lead foot is not allowed to leave the circle. Yeah, I know it will not happen, but.....