Less Travel teams?

[MTR]

In the NY/NJ area it feels as if there are too many travel teams and not enough players at the younger ages. The teams are watered down and there are a lot of teams still looking for players or only have a roster of 10.

I understand on a National level ASA is the most competitive; but in the NY/NJ area for 14u and younger; ASA presence is almost nonexistent. They are unorganized and tournaments are few and far between. Teams are forced to go to other organizations (USSSA, PONY, ISA, NSA) to round out their schedule. ASA also require you to purchase specific ASA insurance for qualifiers which for a team that might already have insurance is seen as a waste or added expense to maybe enter one ASA tournament.

I completely agree with you. Your assessment is on target and this is a case where the LOCAL heirarchy seems to have its priorities bass-ackwards. The insurance requirement is, and always has been, absurd. I'm a firm believer insurance is a team's prerogative and responsibility. However, ASA is not the only one which demands insurance.

OTOH, I have said for years that ASA is a sanctioning body, not a tournament organizer. Want to have an ASA tournament, go ahead, they'll be happy to help you out.

 

[MTR]

Tournaments are all about money no matter what the sanction. The more games gaurenteed the more teams show up. I do believe this is a sad commentary on travel ball teams who will not play in a tournament because their view is "we don't want to go to a tournament that we may only play 2 games and go home". If you don't believe you can win, why go to any tournament? Why travel to a tournament and spend a weekend in a motel if you believe you will get beat every game? ASA nationals is no different, except they offer a chance to win 'the Nationals' instead of extra games. When you have close to 100 teams compeating for one national championship, the odds of winning are pretty slim. Sure the experiance is worth something, playing the best teams in the country and all, but it is a huge expense spending a week in 'Dog Run, ID', but if my DD's team qualifies, we will go because she would be devistated if we didn't.

It just seems to me that if Nationals, or any other sanctions World Series were not about money, qualifying would be made much harder. Something like having to qualify for the state championship where only the top finishers would qualify for a division championship. Then the division would send the top one or two teams to Nationals. Then Nationals could be completed in one weekend instead of a whole week and only the elite teams would get there.

If it's not about money, then what is it that makes sanctions want as many teams as possible to attend their end of the year 'championship' tournament? I'm just wondering. Am I missing something?

Everything is about money, but there is no choice. People don't do all this work out of the goodness of their heart. Fields, permits, lights, scoreboard, etc. are all costly. Hotels don't give away rooms and when there is an event in town, they need to make money to cover the times when such events and traffic doesn't exist.

Does ASA make money on every tournament? No, but they try. They have expenses, too. However, it is not uncommon for ASA to "waive" fees to a tournament host that is not going to recover its expenses.

The issue I have never understood is that some of these players are on the field 10 months a year, others 3-4. HS play, league play, friendlies, states, regionals and qualifiers of multiple organization not to mention pick-up scrimmages just for fun every now and then. I don't understand the big deal of taking one week/tournament to play a double-elimination for a national tournament. The only people that only play two games are those that probably didn't belong there to begin.

That brings us to another issue which was another reason the territorial nationals came to be. Everyone wants that "experience" and will do whatever they can whether the team is qualified to be there or not. It has gotten to the point that you just cannot please everyone all the time. Have a limited qualifiers and you are the devil for depriving all these young ladies from a great experience. Allow almost anyone who wants to attend in and you are wasting the time and jeopardizing good players for the sake of playing shirt games.

ASA tried to satisfy both sides here with the 3-game guarantee which seemed acceptable, at least in my area the people loved it. Apparently, the right people who were selling their souls.....er, parents a bill of goods couldn't answer the parents as to why Lil Susie only played three games in the tournament. Then you had the back and forth of, "yes, pool play counts", "no, pool play doesn't count", "only certain pool play counts" vicious cycle upon which rarely 2/3 of the folks could agree.

The way I've always looked at it is as a tournament. The idea is supposed to be play to win and win to keep playing. There are four huge basketball tournaments going on right now that use this format. But that's just me, I believe in competing against the best to become the best, not worry about counting a number of games.

 

[wild man]

WOW way more response than I expected to this subject. I see that there is a lot of difference from place to place as far as how many kids, the different organizations and such.
As far as Cost I can only go by what Very few ASA folks tell me most teams it is 400 to 500 per Player per tournament. So 3 tourneys would cost 1500 for just your DD.
When My DD was 16 she was invited to a U16 A team at 1800 for the season And the Practice facility was 1 hour away . Needless to say she didnt get to go. LL is 75 bucks for the season [about 25 games]. I realize the Compitition is less but we do what we can.
I had one coach tell me the nearest ASA has lost 7 teams this year alone. there is no usssa here at all that I know of. Localy we have LL and High School For ASA you gotta go 35 miles or so.

 

[absdad]

As far as Cost I can only go by what Very few ASA folks tell me most teams it is 400 to 500 per Player per tournament. So 3 tourneys would cost 1500 for just your DD.

Someone's pulling your chain... or maybe you misunderstood. An entire team can almost play a league for that amount of money. Those quote prices are almost certainly for an entire team.

 

[mudbug]

Most teams play everything, and register in 3 or 4 organizations, or more. Good teams want to play other good teams, and good teams are not that common. Most teams in a given for profit tournament are mediocre, even at national level.

A lot of the best teams in the country are old organizations, some have been around 20,30,40+ years. These organizations hold their own tournaments each year and other good teams, as well as all types for "filler" can attend. Others are invitational, you have to be good, well known, and invited to attend. These independent tournaments are some of the best you will experience, we travel 400-500 miles to attend a couple every year.

Point is, you look a tournaments that have the types of teams that you want to play , and thats where you go. If everyone is playing XYZQ state tourney, you go there. If they are at ABC qualifier, you might go there. The competition is why you go, not because of what sanctioning body is running a tournament. Also need to have your backup plans in case you dont qualify for your first choice of end-of-season tourney.

I agree that ASA is poorly run often at district or state levels, and is slow to change. When people get old, and have been doing the same things for 40 yrs, they dont change easily, my 70 yr old father has never had an ATM card! goes to the bank to get money same way as he has for 50 yrs. Many of ASAs people have been around for quite a while and dont see the need or advantages to doing things differently.

When it comes to Nationals, and competition, its ASA USA all the way. Nothing else compares or is as structured with as high caliber of competition. (yes some teams play premier too) And nothing else draws the college coaches in like it either. It is the best showcase as 14U and 16U. However, that is only because that is where the good teams are playing. If they went to play ABCD, that would become the best overnight too. At the end of the day its the competition, period.

To someone that hasnt experienced it, it may seem incredible that people would spend the amount of money, and time to have their DD play softball at the highest level. Ill just put it this way, being on a great team with good chemistry among the girls and parents is an awesome experience. You make some of the best friends you will ever have, spend a lot of time with them having fun on the road in addition to just watching/playing ball too. Its a worthwile way to spend a few months per year. And you might just get a little payback in the way of help with college expenses to boot.

Life is short, its not about how much money you can save, or what kinds of things you have, or what type job you do, or even your success at that. That stuff is all guaranteed to be irrelevant on your deathbed. Its about the experiences you had, and the people you affected positively.

 

[fastpitch]

WOW way more response than I expected to this subject. I see that there is a lot of difference from place to place as far as how many kids, the different organizations and such.
As far as Cost I can only go by what Very few ASA folks tell me most teams it is 400 to 500 per Player per tournament. So 3 tourneys would cost 1500 for just your DD.
When My DD was 16 she was invited to a U16 A team at 1800 for the season And the Practice facility was 1 hour away . Needless to say she didnt get to go. LL is 75 bucks for the season [about 25 games]. I realize the Compitition is less but we do what we can.
I had one coach tell me the nearest ASA has lost 7 teams this year alone. there is no usssa here at all that I know of. Localy we have LL and High School For ASA you gotta go 35 miles or so.

An ASA tournament (or USSSA or NSA, etc) is usually $400 to $500 per team per tournament. Which you usually get 4 timed games guaranteed and if you don't lose you get a few more on sunday. If you are comparing on a cost of game for your $ value it definitely costs more to play on a team that plays these tournaments.

If you are trying to do the math per player; If they have a team that only plays tournaments and enters ten tournaments at $400 a piece and you have ten players (keeping math simple.). That's about $400 in entry fees per player for tournaments only. Let's say two uniforms per girl are $100 x2 =$200. Plus insurance and anything extra. Assuming no cost for winter training facility and no fancy team bags and helmets; that's at least $600 plus cost of insurance for about 40-50 games.

In the Northeast for these tournament club or travel teams we have to factor indoor practice facility time (i think thats the biggest cost variable here); team equipment; player bags; helmets; warm up sweats... the cost easily goes over $1000 per player for some teams that don't do any fundraisers. So roughly for $1000 more or less expect to get about 50 games.

 

[coachdan]

In my area NC we have just the reverse happening. Rec ball is struggling to just have 2 or 3 team in the league that play a very very low level of softball. I my home town our rec leage has started playing slow pitch because hardly any girls would sign up to play fastpitch. I talked to rec director and told him that he was hurting the girls chances of playing ball in Middle and high school because all they play is fast pitch. He told me that rec ball is supposed to be about nothing but having fun.

Now on the other hand the more competive girls don't play rec ball at all because of the slowpitch and lack of competition. On and average weekend tournament there will be aprox 25 team signed up in the 10u and 12u divisions. When my youngest daughter was playing TB you were lucky to get 8 to 10 teams to sign up for tournament.