IR--one more time

[Steve Huff]

I have to disagree with the above statement. "Internal Rotation" is the notion that the shoulder complex, upper arm, lower arm, hand, and wrist wants to internally rotate to the center of the body (i.e. the position that the body would be in if you are standing upright facing forward and your arms are hanging relaxed to the side of your body naturally).

The whole idea that "Internal Rotation" only happens at or after the release of the ball is a fallacy. In fact the whole process of arm whip is using internal rotation as soon as the shoulder and arm reaches the 9 o'clock position (directly behind you to 2B), the hand will be "palm to the sky" and as the shoulder and arm continues forward they are continuously "internally rotating" into AND through release. Internal Rotation is what is generating arm whip and ultimately velocity to the pitch.

If Boardmember is around he can articulate the process better than I can.

This is all a good description, but there is one fallacy that needs to be noted about natural arm position. The natural hand position when facing forward, arms at the side, is palm forward, like in a biceps curl. The palm touching or slapping the thighs is a pronated position. This hand shake position is already pronated 90 degrees, with the radius moving over the top of the ulna. Soon after that 90 degrees of pronation, the elbow and shoulder have to compensate for continued IR.

This in no way involves our debate about 12:00, 09:00 palm to the wall or palm up issue. This is strictly about the bone orientation at or after release.

 

[BoardMember]

This is all a good description, but there is one fallacy that needs to be noted about natural arm position. The natural hand position when facing forward, arms at the side, is palm forward, like in a biceps curl.

Raise your hand if you think this is a true statement..........Standing at attention with the shoulders/arms/wrists relaxed, who on this boards palm faces forward "naturally".......Who on this boards thumb "naturally" hangs "outside" the elbow......Palm forward........

If your human anatomy is "within normal range", your thumb (radius bone) hangs normally "inside" your elbow.........Where do these guys come up with this stuff? I think it comes from the need to be right about "something" in EVERY thread.........

This is why I don't post in EVERY THREAD.......When people are having an intellegent conversations that is mostly correct........I don't feel the need to "insert myself" into the conversation unless I have something to add..........Some guys are like bad umpires.........They have to "insert" themselves into the game to feel important.........

The palm touching or slapping the thighs is a pronated position.

Pronation is the act of turning the palm DOWN to the ground. Pronation/Supination are terms relative to the ground.......Medial(I/R)/Lateral(E/R) rotation are terms relative to the upright human body.......

This hand shake position is already pronated 90 degrees, with the radius moving over the top of the ulna.

Simply not true......The hand shake position is neutral regarding pronation/supination.......From there.........Palm down is pronated.....Palm up is supinated.......

Soon after that 90 degrees of pronation, the elbow and shoulder have to compensate for continued IR.

Pronation and Supination are 90 degree rotational movements.....Turning from Supination (palm up) to Pronation (palm down) is 180 degrees of rotation. With the forearm level to the ground, turning from neutral to palm down is 90 degrees of rotation. Turning palm up is 90 degrees is supination..........

Medial and Lateral rotation turn the bicep and/or forearm toward and/or away from the midline of the body when the arm is hanging at your side........

Palm forward is a LATERALLY ROTATED forearm.........And is NOT a "neutral" position of the human anatomy..........

his in no way involves our debate about 12:00, 09:00 palm to the wall or palm up issue. This is strictly about the bone orientation at or after release.

SoCal "nailed" how whip and I/R are mutually exclusive bio-mechanical movements........And he was about to tell this dad that just MAYBE the PC isn't looking the in right place for adding velocity........OBVIOUSLY FROM EXPERIENCE..........

FYI......The arm circle is NOT "whip".......The arm circle COMBINED with I/R is whip............

It's ALL ABOUT creating "corners"...........The arm circle in and of itself is NOT a "corner"........It's a "circle".........

Nothing bugs me more then when I hear a PC telling a student that the ONLY reason she can't reach her velocity potential is because "her arm circle is too slow".........In my head I instantly wonder if they have insurance for her future shoulder surgery(s)..........

OK I'm done.....Carry on.......And please people......Be GREAT "umpires"........

 

[abbygale]

It's ALL ABOUT creating "corners"...........

How many corners would you say there typically are from stride plant on?

 

[Steve Huff]

If your human anatomy is "within normal range", your thumb (radius bone) hangs normally "inside" your elbow.........Where do these guys come up with this stuff? I think it comes from the need to be right about "something" in EVERY thread.........

This is why I don't post in EVERY THREAD.......When people are having an intellegent conversations that is mostly correct........I don't feel the need to "insert myself" into the conversation unless I have something to add..........Some guys are like bad umpires.........They have to "insert" themselves into the game to feel important.........

You misspelled "intelligent". Not a very good start! But that is not the issue. Actually that information comes from my physiology class. Pronation, supination start at a neutral position. Palm toward the thigh is a position we learn. We learn it reaching and grasping because we have opposing thumbs.

I might point out that the 12:00 positions of these pitcher's hands, posted by sluggers, reflect a 90 degree level of supination, allowed by the shoulder's rotator-cuff when the arm is raised to the side. The infamous "bowling position" palm forward at the bottom is neutral.

Whales have fingers, but they don't use them to grasp do they? We have a human habit of rotating the radius over the ulna and letting our hands hang in a pronated position. It is science BoardMember! Your need to be "right" does not supplant science and human anatomy. I will look for some evidence to prove or disprove my purported ignorance!

I typed "forearm pronation supination" into google. It took less than 3 minutes to find the facts. Please look at this video at 00:53. It won't take long.



To be complete and fair, I do agree with this!

SoCal "nailed" how whip and I/R are mutually exclusive bio-mechanical movements........And he was about to tell this dad that just MAYBE the PC isn't looking the in right place for adding velocity........OBVIOUSLY FROM EXPERIENCE..........

FYI......The arm circle is NOT "whip".......The arm circle COMBINED with I/R is whip............

It's ALL ABOUT creating "corners"...........The arm circle in and of itself is NOT a "corner"........It's a "circle".........

Nothing bugs me more then when I hear a PC telling a student that the ONLY reason she can't reach her velocity potential is because "her arm circle is too slow".........In my head I instantly wonder if they have insurance for her future shoulder surgery(s)..........

 

[BoardMember]

Ah yes......I see what you've done........You used the word "natural" in your original post........

This is all a good description, but there is one fallacy that needs to be noted about natural arm position. The natural hand position when facing forward, arms at the side, is palm forward, like in a biceps curl

Then diverted to "neutral" to switch focus from "natural" to describing anotomical body planes........

I'm not interested in "neutral body planes".........I'm interested in "natural positions" and muscular movements that make up/create the bio-mechanics of fastpitch........

In my classes we refered to something similar to this:

Muscular System - Tutorials & Quizzes On Skeletal Muscle Anatomy

Feel free to run through the muscles menu's and watch the animations. You'll notice that both supination and pronation of the forearm are always shown with a 90 degree elbow bend to best decribe the actions......."Prone" (face down)......"Supine" (face up)..........

Regardless of all this and the diversion you tried to create........The "natural" position of the palm is "not forward" as you suggested........And it's wrong/misleading to suggest it is.........

Be a good umpire and don't insert yourself when you don't have to........

One last thing........I/R.......Internal rotation starts with the humerus as I noted in my I/R thread.......The humerus turns in the shoulder socket from laterally(externally) rotated to medially (internally) rotated......Not "supinated to pronated".........

Since the kinetic chain works proximal to distal.........I/R STARTS with lateral to medial (internal) rotation of the upper arm........So don't confine the action to the forearm/wrist.........Or you'll miss MOST of the content regarding whip........

 

[Steve Huff]

Ah yes......I see what you've done........You used the word "natural" in your original post........


Then diverted to "neutral" to switch focus from "natural" to describing anotomical body planes........

I'm not interested in "neutral body planes".........I'm interested in "natural positions" and muscular movements that make up/create the bio-mechanics of fastpitch........

In my classes we refered to something similar to this:

Muscular System - Tutorials & Quizzes On Skeletal Muscle Anatomy

Feel free to run through the muscles menu's and watch the animations. You'll notice that both supination and pronation of the forearm are always shown with a 90 degree elbow bend to best decribe the actions......."Prone" (face down)......"Supine" (face up)..........

Regardless of all this and the diversion you tried to create........The "natural" position of the palm is "not forward" as you suggested........And it's wrong/misleading to suggest it is.........

Be a good umpire and don't insert yourself when you don't have to........

One last thing........I/R.......Internal rotation starts with the humerus as I noted in my I/R thread.......The humerus turns in the shoulder socket from laterally(externally) rotated to medially (internally) rotated......Not "supinated to pronated".........

Since the kinetic chain works proximal to distal.........I/R STARTS with lateral to medial (internal) rotation of the upper arm........So don't confine the action to the forearm/wrist.........Or you'll miss MOST of the content regarding whip........

"Neutral, Natural", you can parse all you want. I used one in one thread and the other in the other. I was lucky to match the video terminology at that!

I have to disagree with the above statement. "Internal Rotation" is the notion that the shoulder complex, upper arm, lower arm, hand, and wrist wants to internally rotate to the center of the body (i.e. the position that the body would be in if you are standing upright facing forward and your arms are hanging relaxed to the side of your body naturally). - SouternCalSoftballDad

To be honest, I didn't know where that term "natural" came from. It didn't sound like me. That is why when I was writing without a response, I used the term neutral. So why I might ask, are you criticizing SouthernCalSoftballDad? But it wasn't to "trick" you! I didn't realize I was posting to you. I think that is a little narcissistic isn't it to make that leap? Palm down is in fact a "pronated" position, as you stated. That is correct. Hold your hand out front, palm up, and try to supinate! You can't do it. Pronation is a natural function of the forearm/elbow joint and wrist. Supination is not! Supination of the forearm is allowed by the shoulder in certain positions. The good doctors in the video have stated just as I told, not you, but the observers and contributors of this thread, that palm up is neutral, and now you are claiming it is supination.

Honestly I don't get your point. When people can't debate, they attack. And it seems to me you have a problem with me that is personal, and not practical. For that reason your posts can go nowhere but turn this into another locked thread! I would suggest civility might be a prudent course, rather than "coarse"!

 

[durwood]

I would love to hear a little more about "turning corners" and whip. Where are those corners? Would having a arm circle that is more like a circle (locked elbow or slightly bent elbow) not " turning the corners". This maybe what DD could be missing. I know video is best. Will
work on that.

 

[Steve Huff]

I would love to hear a little more about "turning corners" and whip. Where are those corners? Would having a arm circle that is more like a circle (locked elbow or slightly bent elbow) not " turning the corners". This maybe what DD could be missing. I know video is best. Will
work on that.

durwood, unfortunately the ESF (European Softball Federation) changed the women's pitching rules last fall. As a result there were many ladies over there trying to pitch with the lawful male mechanics. Suddenly, the women's game had found a silver bullet! I was over there for two months this winter, and I saw a disaster. Speeds were down, and the women typically were pitching very high. I can not tell you why exactly, but I did predict it in a pre-clinic meeting with coaches. Maybe in two more months, things would have improved, but it was ugly in my opinion. This is my point! Men pitch with more arm muscle or muscling than women. They rely on this enhanced bent elbow more than women as displayed at 12:00. Women should use IR, but they also must have a balance of leg speed or pushoff, arm-speed, IR, and balance. That is why you see less bent elbows in women pitchers at the top. However, the more the elbow pulls the forearm into the side at the hip, the greater the arm whip and velocity. The "bowling, palm forward style" is a real inhibitor. I first noticed this with a pitching student in the 1980's who threw harder in a "half-circle" warm up drill than when using the whole motion. I would guess about 3mph. Because I played Men's fastpitch, it was easy to compare and see that arm whip was very relevant to speed. I don't think there is a perfect pitcher. But some are near perfect. I think if you took Jennie Finch, all of her forces combine to contribute to a powerful delivery of the pitch with max effort. A little more whip created by more elbow bend, and you might have a near perfect pitcher.

I also think that Halskinner, or Hillhouse, who were much better pitchers than I ever thought about being (literally 3rd string), or another good men's pitcher might be able to explain this better than this attempt. Someone help me out here!

 

[Perfect Circle]

after reading "cutting arm circle short for riseball" thread got me thinking about DD arm circle. how much should the elbow be bent when arm is at 12 oclock and going to release. i have seen some pics of men at 12 oclock and their arms
bent with the elbow leading, they have more of a bend in the arm than woman. my DD is extended pretty straight but gets a slight bend at the 9 oclock mark. does she need more bend to get more whip or have misunderstood the IR thread.

...To engage in male/female world view comparisons is like saying men pitchers weigh more than women pitchers. Or females are more teachable. Your question simply answered is....Start by not locking elbow from start to finish. As she finds relief "she" will integrate control and velocity suitable enough to place her in reach of "her goal" painlessly. If that is a more supportive role as #2 pitcher, then you also must un-lock her thoughts.

 

[Perfect Circle]

The young ones are keen on form and it seems a straight elbow is one thing that must carry over from some other activity whether dance or something else.

I agree that there is a carryover...I know my DD's had to have been from cartwheels... In the choice of style, is where it is fertilized...the stretch, double & single pump. When the arm is brought back pasted the waist, the locked elbow is introduced, invested in, initiated, and then institutionalized.