Struggling with IR - Return to HE?

Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch

Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.

May 2, 2018
200
63
Central Virginia
I don't think her motion is "finished" in any of your pictures (see below of her in a game). She was taught HE... but she still pitched with IR, because it is a natural motion, and doesn't really need to be taught. As soon as someone taught her to be palm up at 9 o'clock, she had IR. Perhaps if she had been allowed to finish naturally, she would have finished palm down...

The OP is trying to choose between HE and IR, like they are mutually exclusive... But HE is a finish, and IR happens before release.

View attachment 26198
I think this is more of a natural IR finish than a forced palm down.

I am not sure why everyone is arguing with wheresmycar. IR is indeed a natural occurrence within the entirety of the pitch which is allowed to occur based on other mechanical factors (e.g. palm up at 9).

IR is not a way to pitch, it is something that needs to happen with the arm during the pitch. An elite level pitching motion contains many mechanical factors that should be happening (good drive, 45 degree foot, good FSR, bent elbow/loose arm, palm up at 9, IR/brush).

IR is a coined term now for a way to pitch but it is out of context. It's only one part (although extremely important) of the entirety of the pitching motion.
 

sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
7,132
113
Dallas, Texas
The OP is trying to choose between HE and IR, like they are mutually exclusive... But HE is a finish, and IR happens before release.

View attachment 26198
This is a promo picture, not a picture of her during a game. (No SS, no CF, no fans, and the field is perfectly raked.)

IR and HE are *NOT* finishes. They describe a pitching motion.

In the HE motion, the ball is pushed around the circle. The palm faces 2B at 12 and the palm is down at 9. There is NO IR of the forearm. In the IR motion, the ball is pulled around the circle, the ball is up at 9, and the forearm rotates so that the ball faces home at release.

The easiest way to determine whether there is IR after release. The palm down after release can happen only if the forearm rotates.
 
Last edited:
May 16, 2016
946
93
This is a promo picture, not a picture of her during a game. (No SS, no CF, no fans, and the field is perfectly raked.)

IR and HE are *NOT* finishes. They describe a pitching motion.

In the HE motion, the ball is pushed around the circle. The palm faces 2B at 12 and the palm is down at 9. There is NO IR of the forearm. In the IR motion, the ball is pulled around the circle, the ball is up at 9, and the forearm rotates so that the ball faces home at release.

The easiest way to determine whether there is IR after release. The palm down after release can happen only if the forearm rotates.
Promo pictures? :unsure:

Anyway, it's more likely she is throwing a curve, roll over drop or some other movement pitch in your pictures, and she probably didn't throw a straight fastball that much in games. HE finish is generally used on fastball or peel drop.

Example - Jenny Finch how to throw a screwball

Since this has devolved into what Jenny Finch did/did not do, and a fundamental difference in how IR and HE are defined... I think this is pretty much played out. Peace.
 

sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
7,132
113
Dallas, Texas
If you are going to teach pitching, you need to understand the mechanics.

Promo pictures? :unsure:
Teams take pictures their top players to put on the outside of brochures. They are called "promos" because they are "promoting" the team. The reason you can its a promo is because of the pristine background and the image quality. When Jenny pitched for Arizona from 1999 to 2002, video cameras couldn't capture high res images.
HE finish is generally used on fastball or peel drop.
At to peel drops, you are correct...of course, the only place you will find true peel drops is 12U...after that, there is almost always some amount of IR involved.

As to fastballs, your completely wrong.

The attached video is basically "how fast does Jenny throw". You will see, over and over and over, the palm down after release. On some pitches, her right arm goes up with her palm facing home plate after release.

 
Last edited:
May 16, 2016
946
93
Thanks, but I am aware of what a Promo picture is.... Haha...

You will see, over and over and over, the palm down after release. On some pitches, her right arm goes up with her palm facing home plate after release.
LOL, thanks for the video... lots of HE in this... I never saw any pitches where she HE with the palm faces home plate, every one of these the palm is facing towards her. I think these pictures also put the "She doesn't HE in games" to rest... Thanks!


1660189295521.png1660189344276.png1660189419076.png1660189506798.png

Here is a sequence further in the video... looks more like her screwball finish, but, regardless of what pitch it is, she never pronates her forearm... So, you can IR, and finish without going palm down...

1660189932999.png1660189973244.png1660190011846.png1660190063563.png1660190146353.png

I am not seeing over and over a palm down finish in the video you posted...

Anyway, this is what I've been saying all along... Jenny has IR and an HE finish on certain pitches.
 
Last edited:
Jan 22, 2011
1,610
113
I think people are talking past each other. Very basic definition of HE vs. IR I think most people here would agree with (look at blog I linked to: https://keyfundamentalssoftball.com/author/byrneskeeley/ ) :

HE- "Pushing the ball around the circle, normally with a forced finish of trying to touch the shoulder and point the elbow at the catcher. Sometimes a cue given to keep the arm long and flick the wrist on release.".

IR- "Pulling the ball around the circle with a bend at the elbow, having the palm up at 9 o'clock (some say this isn't an absolute and can start turning towards 1B/3B at 10 o'clock), getting a trigger at the hip, and letting the arm finish where it naturally wants to."

Another thing the main IR instructors I follow say is to make each pitch look the same until shortly before release to fool the batter and attempt to make the pitch pass through the same "window" about halfway to the plate to give the batter less time to react.




If a pitcher forces the elbow to point at the catcher after release that is a style thing, but not what most people mean when saying HE. One of the WinReality softball pitchers in the original release had a forced "Hello Elbow" finish, which I found very distracting and the rep I talked to thanked me for pointing that out.
 
Last edited:
May 15, 2008
1,913
113
Cape Cod Mass.
Jennie Finch does not have an HE finish unless you want to take a very simplistic view/definition. An HE finish will have the palm up at 3 o'clock and the hand/forearm will be in line with the elbow and aligned with home plate. The palm may face up shortly after release if you are throwing a rise ball or a palm up curve or even bullet spin but the hand will be moving inside the target line.

Generally the finish is not very important however it can be a sign that there is an issue surrounding the release. I would also say that having the palm up at 9 o'clock is not something I would encourage unless you want to exaggerate or overbuild IR. Palm up in a quality pitcher usually indicates a riseball or palm up curve.
 

sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
7,132
113
Dallas, Texas
LOL, thanks for the video... lots of HE in this... I never saw any pitches where she HE with the palm faces home plate, every one of these the palm is facing towards her.
I didn't realize you were visually impaired, Apparently, you have difficulty telling the palm from the back of the hand.
 
May 17, 2012
2,804
113
I don't think her motion is "finished" in any of your pictures (see below of her in a game). She was taught HE... but she still pitched with IR, because it is a natural motion, and doesn't really need to be taught. As soon as someone taught her to be palm up at 9 o'clock, she had IR. Perhaps if she had been allowed to finish naturally, she would have finished palm down...

The OP is trying to choose between HE and IR, like they are mutually exclusive... But HE is a finish, and IR happens before release.

View attachment 26198

I haven't seen anyone else that played at such a high level have a fake HE follow through as Jennie did. Combining this with the fact that she didn't really understand how she pitched (her words) at one point makes any discussion about her pitching problematic.
 

Latest posts

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
42,830
Messages
679,468
Members
21,443
Latest member
sstop28
Top