IR--one more time

[Screwball]

I have not watched Escobedo as much as I would like and when the WCWS was on, I was in a vacation cabin with a small tv.

However, modern pitchers who are closed tend to never open. I don't see the hip pulling the pitch by, which is what would concern me.

The end of the motion certainly looks like a drop. It also looks like a sidearm (which by the [out of date] rules is actually illegal) I personally can't get my wrist to do that sort of thing. I think the pitch types may have bled together. The difference is that by college the player has many many reps and can perfect a certain form, while a kid is going out there with less reps, less experience, less understanding.

When you pitch, it is a feel thing. I wonder how many of us drive cars well (or think we do) without understanding every bit of how it works.

If you understand the feel of something, and it works and you can make corrections and get good results, does not matter to me so much perfect ideal form.

 

[Steve Huff]

However, modern pitchers who are closed tend to never open. I don't see the hip pulling the pitch by, which is what would concern me.

The end of the motion certainly looks like a drop. It also looks like a sidearm (which by the [out of date] rules is actually illegal) I personally can't get my wrist to do that sort of thing. I think the pitch types may have bled together. The difference is that by college the player has many many reps and can perfect a certain form, while a kid is going out there with less reps, less experience, less understanding.

Her shoulder opens to about 60 degrees, then closes to about 45 degrees in the last two .gifs. Her hips open to about 45 degrees and stay there.

It is her funky riseball release. Look at the "i155.tinypic" above. It the first one is taken from the second pic.

 

[tojo]

I appreciate all those that responded and understand the I/R and E/R but my reason for my question is not the rise but the pitch she throws inside on RH batters. It looks to me there is a lot of impact on the shoulder joint and rotator cuff the way she pitchs. I noticed in last years WCWS that between innings the trainers/coachs were massaging her throwing shoulder. Do you think ,as I do, that it is only a matter of time before she has a strain or tear. I am aware that she has been pitching a long time with this style but I don't know if she has a history or experienced any injuries in the past.

 

[Steve Huff]

I appreciate all those that responded and understand the I/R and E/R but my reason for my question is not the rise but the pitch she throws inside on RH batters. It looks to me there is a lot of impact on the shoulder joint and rotator cuff the way she pitchs. I noticed in last years WCWS that between innings the trainers/coachs were massaging her throwing shoulder. Do you think ,as I do, that it is only a matter of time before she has a strain or tear. I am aware that she has been pitching a long time with this style but I don't know if she has a history or experienced any injuries in the past.

I am not familiar with the pitch. Do you have a reference? I think her mechanics are going to cause trouble, but also her general physical condition. I used to teach a particular change-up. It was the Lisa Fernandez style basically. I wouldn't teach it to all girls. They had to have a real balanced shoulder structure, solid on all three sides of the rotator cuff. I doubt she has that kind of balance.

 

[Steve Huff]

She qualifies to me as a closed pitcher. Of course you have to open your shoulder to make a circle and you do have to step forward off the rubber. There has to be some angle (and many seem to close the shoulders even for pitches other than curve.). A more closed pitcher also tends to have her weight more forward and a shorter stride, but the only (2) closed pitchers I know are very tall to begin with. You could may be Ellen Renroe in there as a more closed pitcher (I would not but I have not seen her in person). This is different than the forcible use of the hip.

IR does not apply to many of the movement pitches, including the Escobedo screwball.

I would be interested is knowing her stride length to her height.

Here is a photo of Lori Harigan. This is the largest angle I could find on her.
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Lori Harrigan pitched against us twice at the Pepsi Classic ASU tournaments in Phoenix. I don't know if she ever changed her mechanics during that last Olympic run, as I never saw her. But up until these later years, she was the most closed college pitcher I had seen. Interestingly, she was the choice over Angela Tincher.

 

[ArmWhip]

You can be in a more 'closed' position like Harrigan if you lean/tilt toward your pitching arm side. Escobedo leans away from her pitching arm side, that makes her look especially weird, I wince every time I watch her throw a pitch.

When it comes to IR some pitchers utilize it more than others. Jennie Finch trained with the Finch Windmill (obviously) and from what I have seen it works to strengthen the arm circle and doesn't help much with IR. Thus her arm action does not have the flexed elbow and IR that you see with someone like Ueno.

 

[Steve Huff]

You can be in a more 'closed' position like Harrigan if you lean/tilt toward your pitching arm side. Escobedo leans away from her pitching arm side, that makes her look especially weird, I wince every time I watch her throw a pitch.

When it comes to IR some pitchers utilize it more than others. Jennie Finch trained with the Finch Windmill (obviously) and from what I have seen it works to strengthen the arm circle and doesn't help much with IR. Thus her arm action does not have the flexed elbow and IR that you see with someone like Ueno.

There isn't one bit of this I don't agree with. Finch is capable of using more arm whip but not IR IN her technique. She pitches mostly from a palm out position from the top to release. So she rotates her forearm/hand only 90 degrees, none on some pitches like a riseball, to get to the neutral forearm position (palm forward). This has been a bone of contention here because I teach more of a Finch "circle" and others stress the max IR. I think it is safer, and also makes correct spins easier with an entry into the release less complicated because of less hand rotation. Some disagree. But I think everyone is uncomfortable watching Escobedo. And I forgot to add that I agree with Screwball, I consider her closed, as in "too closed"!

 

[Steve Huff]

I never have once paid attention to any of this rotation thing, it just happens. Just to show you how much I don't get it, I though Finch was an example of IR and don't see a flaw other than that she replants her feet. She is pretty good at hiding her pitches, throws a great rise/drop combo, and even throws a peel screw.

Just for fun, look at this pitcher entering the circle. What's this?
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Well she does exercise IR, just not as much as others would prefer. I can't say they are wrong. I simply have two questions that were never answered. If answered to my satisfaction, perhaps the more extreme execution, or in that case, more complete execution might right. Finch rotates her forearm only 90 degrees into the wrist snap. Ueno rotates it 180 degrees into wrist snap. My questions were, does that increased IR create more problems with timing, creating proper spins? And does it put more pressures on the shoulder and elbow as the elbow approached the hip (see Ueno)? She seems rather flexible. I am not! The human elbow is designed for that rotation, but it also is necessary to involve the shoulder to achieve it at certain phases of the circle. So you have the ball of the shoulder's humerus bone rotating in the socket more out of alignment to compensate (see Escabedo for example) and then you also have the potential stress on the same ligament in the elbow as creates Tommy John injuries. Dr. Sherry Warner could answer this and I think I should write to her. I am searching for answers because I can not answer it. I have been met with less than congenial response at times!

 

[ArmWhip]

Likewise I am not saying that Jennie Finch doesn't have IR, you could have full, complete internal rotation of the hand/arm with a locked elbow. In this case IR would contribute very little in terms of velocity. Also, when throwing a riseball the palm should be more or less facing 3rd base at release meaning that internal rotation of the hand/arm is substantially attenuated.

 

[Steve Huff]

Likewise I am not saying that Jennie Finch doesn't have IR, you could have full, complete internal rotation of the hand/arm with a locked elbow. In this case IR would contribute very little in terms of velocity. Also, when throwing a riseball the palm should be more or less facing 3rd base at release meaning that internal rotation of the hand/arm is substantially attenuated.

Yes, this is very astute! And in actually being unaffected by IR, how much does it affect her riseball speed? Personally, I have been under the impression that the "whip", which IR can to some extent help (Ueno), matters more than rotating the hand. It is similar to throwing faster slamming the door, hips closing argument. If Finch throws a curveball with full IR, which is pretty much necessary to throw a "cupped" curveball, a riseball without IR, and a peel drop with 90 degree IR, and they are the same speed, what does that tell you? I caught Michele Smith many, many times. She was the only Majors pitcher I ever caught, so it is a small sample size. But there was no difference in her 3 pitches. Her rise, curve, and fastball were the same speed. (She didn't have a changeup then) So my point again is, does IR help whip, or does turning the hand somehow induce speed? The truth is Finch has very little whip in her circle compared to some.