IR--one more time

[SBFAMILY]

Steve Huff you mail box is full, cannot respond to your PM.

 

[joeman39]

lol lol and who says throwing a ball is simple.....

 

[BoardMember]

How many corners would you say there typically are from stride plant on?

There are essentially 2 corners...........They are however created differently........

The first corner is created as the delivery vehicle moves the initial axis of rotation forward during the arm circle's travel over the top.......This creates the arm circle corner........Movement of the axis of rotation shortens/sharpens the radius of the circle......Turning a circle into a corner........Increasing centerpdal and centrifugal force, as well as increasing angular velocity......

This is why it's critical to understand that the linear movement caused by leg drive is at it's peak as the arm travels over the top.......It isn't how fast you can make your arm "go around"...........It's how efficient and well timed that corner is to creating/increasing angular velocity wthin that arm circle, whatever the limits are of a particular pitcher.........

The second circle is created by internal rotation, as the intial linear delivery mechanism is all but stopped. Something has to continue to increase both centerpdal and centrifugal forces since the "linear moving axis" is no longer available to do so.........I/R is then charged with creating the second circle to continue the kinematic sequence.......Starting with the humerus (bicep) facing rearward and then turning forward and followed naturally by the forearm/wrist and ball..........

IE.......Turning the ball from back to front "within the balance left in the arm circle".........The bicep/forearm become the forward moving delivery mechanism, and turning from back to front within that motion essentially does the same thing by moving the axis forward as the corner is created by I/R...........

Finishing by accomplishing the "NATURAL" postion of palm IN.........

The reason the elbow must be bent has little to do with creating velocity.......And more to do with ALLOWING velocity to be created........It's critical to be relaxed.......as stiffness inhibits the arms ability to do what it needs to do within the sequence........

IOW......It ain't "how bent" anywhere in the sequence.......It's how "relaxed" that's important..........

 

[Perfect Circle]

PC: Still can't follow you but thanks for trying. I have never heard of a locked elbow nor the hello elbow until recently (i guess that is hyperextension and....oh well). Good for me to be dumb most of my life.

Your most welcome.... Thought it would be a synch since you just reproved the other comments for being to Pseudo-intellectuals. But then you return to anatomical or physics terms.... (hyperextension) With your thankz I'm going to try again. Really want some common ground with you :{)

As you returned to the terms, I will return to gender, as it is the framework of OP questions:

I believe that there is no difference... but my DD is better at Fastpitch/BB than any other boy she has ever been challenged by since 4
I do not want her elbow locked for any reason....(pre-motion thru finish) My term is "Hell no elbow"
Pre-motion starts by chewing on cloves, not un-digestible sunflowerseeds
Pre-Motion is only her mechanics, no useless style adaptation... cutting the moves in half, leaving my innovation for the big ending
Follow thur is designed around her ending up with glove extended to the Ump, as she looks thru the webbing. The Theme

Our progression has taken this path:

Introduced...rec league pitchers, watching TB games, college, and then the Women's Championships games in OK.

Invested: in a bucket, DVD, 2 books (refer to for "the Stretch"... "Pump & Double Pump") The Windmill Pitcher...having looked at as catalog... I then purchased PC Lessons and an analysis of the deflection of weight.... it was rated as being harmless.

Initiated: took the show on the road, was invited to join TB, because we were observed practicing our choice of technique regular 3 times a week...no tryouts

Institutionalized: Muscle Memory vs. Myelin.... studying the latter... Either way my selection of "THE" technique of pitching processes is being embedded to its most perfect adherence as a lifelong goal. Published in my DD

I choose my posting style for your very reason of not (disenfranchising) losing the students. Nor do I want to be a party in causing OP's to have to choose a side just to say Thankz... Hope this is clearer for all.... SIMPLY My Application's

 

[joeman39]

I knew I shouldn't had slept through anatomy class.

 

[abbygale]

Would you say that the shoulder's realigning is what initiates the internal rotation of the arm?

 

[tojo]

With all the discussion on bent elbows, internal and external rotation I would like BM,SB, Huff to weigh in on Dallas Escobedo's arm and describe what she maybe using. I watched her last night and my shoulder hurt after watching her pitch. Perfect Circle, I would like your input also. Thanking you in advance.

 

[BoardMember]

Would you say that the shoulder's realigning is what initiates the internal rotation of the arm?

No, I would say that I/R starting at the humerus initiates the realignment process.......I don't want the rear shoulder complex tightening early as an initiator of anything.......

 

[Perfect Circle]

With all the discussion on bent elbows, internal and external rotation I would like BM,SB, Huff to weigh in on Dallas Escobedo's arm and describe what she maybe using. I watched her last night and my shoulder hurt after watching her pitch. Perfect Circle, I would like your input also. Thanking you in advance.

And thank you Tojo for including me in this: I want start by clarifying my self description of why I would think I can be of some Significance to this very complex subject. I view my role as a carpenter. Handed a set of blue prints, that have yet to be approved, nor stamped by State and Local Officials. The architects and structural engineers are still debating. But I have a crew standing on the site, with a big load of materials, and a hurry up order. I know that I can do it, but when handed the final approved & stamped prints, they will not reflect the factors I bid. My confidence to override a Structural Engineer, after he has showed his equations and fancy formulas and computer animated graphics, is do to the fact that when all is concluded, I'll drive right to a lumber yard, and it will have been in stock for years.

I believe that everyone on this site, regardless of approach, would agree that "we" would not want to do anything that would injure a pitcher in the short or long term. With the exception of those who have little concern about hitting the batter's. (Even though the injury is small, it can calibrate confidence.) I think they are blowing off steam when they say they would, and I think they are lying about it. I refuse to believe that anyone capable of typing on this board, would not do anything to hurt a little girl thru to a young lady. Not intentionally or by omission of the facts. I believe that people who get advice here, will get processes that include safety...far beyond what they can get elsewhere .... that goes with out saying!

I find the mention of this pitcher as being very relevant, do to her early rise on the scene as a freshman winning it all last year. Un fortunately, I have watched as she has been degenerating since. She was not the star at the next televised event, and the waning of her school in the polls this year, not to mention their record. As many have commented, Stars of rec have trouble when hitting the TB level...and this carries all the way up. Her processes was different from the other top pitchers in 2011 who were Jr. & Seniors. It is very different from all the college record holders. Even us all knowing that every Pitcher is unique, and adjustments must be made to body type, by a knowledgeable pro they usually fall within in 4-6 main mechanical schools of thought. I have not seen anything close to the adaption made for her. I watched as she totally dismantled my choice in teams. She has the heart of a great champion, and if truth be known about the pain she endures. Though she gallantly beat my teams, she never faced my choice in pitchers...I had 2...both have received Gold Metals, and one is playing in Japan since the Series. I'm not teaching DD to emulate their processes, we do love to watch them play. Your mention of that pitcher, is a consciences forming example....I don't think any of us of all .the differing views would subscribe to her as a representation of our beliefs. I would say it was a great moment in time, and TV, as she so masterfully demonstrated "the Pitcher" vs. "the Hitters" that year.... but don't try this at home. If you can get me too the video of what game you are talking about...I'd be glad to give you my play by play on her motion.

 

[Steve Huff]

With all the discussion on bent elbows, internal and external rotation I would like BM,SB, Huff to weigh in on Dallas Escobedo's arm and describe what she maybe using. I watched her last night and my shoulder hurt after watching her pitch. Perfect Circle, I would like your input also. Thanking you in advance.

tojo, I think I would have to walk you through a little experiment so you can see for yourself what is troubling about Escobedo, rather than use descriptions. First let me go back to my video. As the medical video showed at 00:53 seconds, the human body was created with the forearm bones parallel to each other, and limited range of motion; primarily pronation. By that I mean turning the palms in toward the body. As boardmember said, turning them toward the ground is also pronation, but pitching isn't why the body works the way it does. But for arguments sake, rather than letting the hands hang at the sides, lets face the palms up. If you reach over and grab your right forearm, you will notice the bones, radial on the outside, and ulna on the inside are parallel. This is the neutral arm position. Now if you twist your hand in, thumb over the top to face toward the center of your body, you will feel the radial bone twist over the top of the ulna. This is the first useful position we have acquired as humans because of our opposing thumbs; grasping! You can continue to turn it over until it is palm down. That is 180% of movement with ONLY elbow movement. If you continue 90 more degrees, you can continue to turn it palm out/thumb down. That is about the limit of pronation and is aided by shoulder humorous head rotation.

Now face the palms up again. Try to turn the palm out, away from the body. We have very limited supination (outward) as you can see.

Your shoulder allows a certain amount of supination or pronation in varying amounts. Turning the arm all the way over 270 degrees in pronation could only be accomplished by the involvement of the head of the humerus bone. That bone sits in a shallow pocket and is stabilized by the rotator cuff of ligaments, tendons, and muscle. This allows a lot of movement in numerous directions by the arm. Shoulder movement at extremes means risk.

Next, take your right palm, and keeping it face up rotate it across the front of your body and touch your elbow and ear. That simulates an exaggerated "bowling" release of a pitch. Now take the right arm and rotate it away from the center. Keep the palm up until the arm is extended all the way to your side away from your body. This is now a slightly more "open pitching position with the "palm up" position boardmember speaks of.

Now we are at the last phase. Bend your elbow, bringing it down toward your waist. A few men and some girls may be able to touch their waist with the elbow and keep palm up facing the sky. Most probably can't. So what happens next. Well if you bring the elbow down to the waist, and you lower your hand toward the front of your hip, or right thigh, you can't keep the forearm palm up.

So behind you the shoulder socket allows some movement. But at a point, varying per individual, the hand must begin to rotate into a pronated position without damaging the shoulder (rotator cuff), so as boardmember I think mentioned, the shoulder initiates it. I think this is the second corner boardmember speaks of. It is physically necessary.

This is why the closed door pitcher, Lori Harrigan, had 3 surgeries. It is also why Dallas Escobedo hurts to watch. In fact her rise-ball release is not similar to 99% of other pitchers. She even facilitates that release by bending her elbow a little just before release, and flipping her hand inward, both somewhat, "somewhat", like a curveball. This reduces tensions in the elbow.

The rise-ball release typically involves the back of the hand straight in line with the forearm, and only the ends of the fingers under the ball, so palm out. In other words, the hand position is back in that neutral position I first spoke of but down next to the thigh. After release, the release will produce a palm up position. Dallas' grip and release motion is learned through trial and error, or perhaps she was taught to do this. But a normal riseball release can not be executed from a closed hip position before release. She is very likely going to have arm problems. I think Perfect Circle eluded to that.

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