Catcher square or sideways when throwing down

[PlaySundaySoftball]

My daughter is a 10U catcher. When she throws down to second she is usually squared up. She is big and strong and she can get the ball there that way. My question is should she turn before her throw ("Skateboard") Her coach wants her to, I am just not sure which way is best. Here is a video on my youtube page that show you what I am talking about. YouTube - 99 Pride Catcher runner caught stealing
I know this throw was a little short, but she got the runner anyway.
Any opinions would be welcome.
Thanks
PlaySundaySoftball
Play Sunday Softball

 

[Catching Coach]

PlaySundaySoftball,

I love the jumping up and down with excitement when she realizes the runner is out. Great stuff!!!

While your DD has enough arm strengh to make the throw "squared-up" the problem is the throw is all arm. Her legs and more importantly her hips are not in the throw at all.

I see many girls throw this way at the younger ages and many develop shoulders and elbow issues down the road.

It is important for her to learn to close off the front side and be throwing with her hips and legs as well.

Notice this catchers stance with runners on. Your daughter was in a very deep crouch so the first few 10/ths of a second we devoted to standing up. Down the road that will add to much time to her throw.

Watch the clip below. You will see how the catchers right foot slides accross to her mid-point then her foot turns so her instep is toward the target.

This helps her left hip close as she drives her left leg towards the target.

<embed width="448" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" src="http://s115.photobucket.com/flash/player.swf?file=http://vid115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/catchingcoach/Softball throw 2nd/T2-BIG-F.flv"></embed>

 

[SnocatzDad]

What's great about video is you can really see what's going on. At about 6-7 seconds the frame shows her turned about 45 as she's getting ready to throw, so she isn't really throwing square, just not going all the way to 90. The other thing you can notice is that from 5-6 seconds she's taking steps towards 2B prior to the throw. If your going to take the time to replant both feet anyway it shouldn't take any longer to get all the way to 90 degrees and get your whole body into the throw.

Girls that young sometimes need to crow hop to put enough on the ball to get it to second reasonably fast. There is nothing wrong with her coming up from her crouch and taking a step into a crow hop to get the ball to 2B. As she gets older and can throw harder she should learn to do a pivot replace where she comes up firing from her crouch like the girl in the video above.

The other reason girls that young can't always execute the pivot replace early is that they don't have the core/leg muscles yet to pull it off. Essentially your simultaneously jumping up and rotating into your throwing position your upper body and core accomplish the rotating and your lower body needs to supply the leap. Some kids when executing this won't actually leave the ground so don't let "leap" mislead you as long as they are driving themselves up with their legs so that there is little or no weight on the pivot foot so it can rotate freely they are fine. If you get a kid who is strong upper body/core but weak in the legs their body might rotate and torque while there is still alot of weight on that back leg and that will lead to knee problems IMO.

 

[PlaySundaySoftball]

PlaySundaySoftball,

I love the jumping up and down with excitement when she realizes the runner is out. Great stuff!!!

That's my favorite part too. If you have time you should read the article I wrote on the home page of my site. Its about what good athletes these girls are, but still little girls at heart.
The video is great. I will have her watch it as soon as she gets home from school. It is a very simple move to get to the point of the throw and should be very easy to learn.
I have visited your site many times and I wish you were not so far, as I would love to bring her to you. (we are in Texas)
Thanks
Play Sunday Softball

 

[Catching Coach]

PSS,

What I stress is from the youngest age for the girls to use the same footwork they will use when the are older. Begin building the muscle memory young and they will not have to learn something new when they are older.

The key for all good throws is to get the ball in the air as fast as possible. Any steps toward 2nd slow that process down. Use good mechanics and if the ball takes a hop to 2nd that's ok. As the arm strengh comes with age that will stop and the throws will carry to the bag.

 

[SnocatzDad]

I don't disagree that you should start practicing the proper footwork as soon as possible. My daughter started at 11 and was able to do it right away, but I've also worked with 10U Rec players who were 7 or 8 who just didn't have the arm strength to get it there period.

 

[SnocatzDad]

PSS,
The key for all good throws is to get the ball in the air as fast as possible. Any steps toward 2nd slow that process down. Use good mechanics and if the ball takes a hop to 2nd that's ok. As the arm strengh comes with age that will stop and the throws will carry to the bag.

Every throw has two time components, the time it takes to make the throw and the time it takes the throw to get there. That's why you see second baseman flip balls towards 1B from 10 ft and outfielders crow hop into a 120 ft throws. The throw to 2B is 84' if the catcher spends .5 sec longer setting up but travel time is .6 less that's a quicker throw. If it was just about getting it in the air as fast as possible we'd teach catchers to do a backhand flip towards 2B and let the ball role there eventually.

 

[absdad]

Awesome throw out. I would almost bet that if she got her body positioned correctly, and got more of her body into the throw, that hop would go away.

 

[Catching Coach]

Every throw has two time components, the time it takes to make the throw and the time it takes the throw to get there. That's why you see second baseman flip balls towards 1B from 10 ft and outfielders crow hop into a 120 ft throws. The throw to 2B is 84' if the catcher spends .5 sec longer setting up but travel time is .6 less that's a quicker throw. If it was just about getting it in the air as fast as possible we'd teach catchers to do a backhand flip towards 2B and let the ball role there eventually.

I am obviously not advocating a backhand throw to 2B. But my feeling are still the same about getting it in the air quick. A quick release has a far greater impact on the overall time of the throw then people think.

Again you are saying that by taking .5 longer to get rid of the ball the catcher will add enough extra velocity to net a .6 sec faster throw? Correct?

I am curious what your research has shown is the velocity gain required to turn a .5 second slower release into a .6 tenth second faster overall time to
2nd base?

 

[SnocatzDad]

Dave,

I think your absolutely right in what your saying for kids who can put any kind of throw together to 2B. Footwork is key and you should save the time there and give it up on the throw. When your trying to trim time glove to glove below 3 seconds, that's where it can be saved.

What I am talking about is for 10U catchers who don't have the arm to get it there yet period. Watch the video, your looking at a glove to glove time of around 4-5 seconds. Good news is that kids at that age don't typically run the bases in 3 seconds flat either

ft thrown 84 84 84 84 84 84 84
miles 0.016 0.016 0.016 0.016 0.016 0.016 0.016
mph 30 35 40 45 50 55 60
mps 0.008 0.010 0.011 0.013 0.014 0.015 0.017
seconds 1.909 1.636 1.432 1.273 1.145 1.041 0.955
Delta 0.273 0.205 0.159 0.127 0.104 0.087

As you can see once the kids are throwing in the 45-55 range getting an extra 5mph on the ball becomes a diminishing return, but 30-35 is almost .3 seconds and if you add in speed lost on dribbling the ball into 2nd base you can get some return

The girl in the video is going in front of the plate and the ball is bouncing into 2nd base not because of a poor throwing angle but because that is her range. If she stood and threw from behind the plate the ball might take 3 or 4 hops in and by the third the ball might be rolling in about 5 mph or stop.

I'm sure you've worked with catchers that young that had plenty of arm, but reality is that a kid that's in private lessons at 8 yrs old isn't very representative of the overall population. Looking at this specific kid, in this specific video based on the ball dropping in from a pretty high arc, I'm guessing if she makes that throw from 3 ft behind the plate the ball might roll and stop short of 2B. Honestly she looks pretty strong to me for a 10U catcher there are plenty that can't make that throw.

It probably makes sense to teach them proper footwork right away even if they can't be successful, but to me a crow hop or taking a step into the throw is acceptable at that age and not that hard to remove when they get older.