barrel/hand pivot point, a.k.a TTB

[julray]

I didn't mean analyzing MLB swings, I meant actually working with multiple students so one has a much larger database of knowing what resonates with hitters of all ages and levels (10 year olds to MiLB hitters...and no, I don't take credit for any of them), when you tell them one thing vs another thing....regardless of if that thing comes from an MLBer or some Internet "gurus" preaches .

My argument all along has been with those who say the best hitters(not just one or two.. over 95%) in the world don't know what they are talking about when they say, demo and practice down to. Regardless, I don't expect you to learn anything from me.. I'm not a world famous instructor.. I just listen and learn from the best in the game. Seems to me your approach is mirror the result (HL swing..what you think you see when studying video). I'm more interested in listening and learning what makes causes the result.

 

[_MIA_]

My argument all along has been with those who say the best hitters(not just one or two.. over 95%) i

I could have swore it was over 93% but ok I guess I will go with your number..

 

[Bonesaw]

Don't know much about Golf.. picking it up this summer I think . But I do understand the analogy, same thing with most sports

Here's something to think about, the isolated downswing arm movement is the exact opposite of that, combined with rotation

Reminds me of this pretty unique "feel" move. (It's just sans-rotation).



do this, with rotation around your spine, and your belly button pointed at the plate.
(Not specifically directed at you julray).

Also for golf check out malaska on youtube. He makes the game as easy as it can get.
(Specifically directed at you julray)

 

[Mudders Brudder]

Seems to me your approach is mirror the result (HL swing..what you think you see when studying video). I'm more interested in listening and learning what makes causes the result.

Yes, that''s a good very assessment. And please don't get me wrong, I do believe that some HL hitters do have competitive swings that match what they talk about. IOWs, I don't care at all who says it, or against anything just because a certain person might be the one saying it.

All I care about is as you correctly identified, does what's being said "mirror the result" that matches the swing I'm looking for, and what I "see when studying video". Which admittedly, what I see, might not be what someone else sees (obviously), and I'm OK with that.

 

[Bobby Shirer]

@Bobby Shirer

Missed this post along the way somewhere...

Bobby Shirer said:
Yep, all the theorizing is fun but seeing if it works is more fun.
@julray this is why tell you to try it.
Become aware of a theory and then swing the bat with that idea in mind and see where it gets you.
After all, there are a number of ways to swing and they can all be perfected but what outcome are you seeking?

If you been following along I have said multiple occasions that I have tried it, my DD even had some success with it. I use to be a TTB person(not hardcore like you ). I no longer am, I looked for greater understanding in what the pros were saying. It all clicked after I understood the proper body movements that pair with the down to motion. If I had my time back with my DD, I would start with proper sequence, the importance of posture and maintaining. I believe this alone will dictate proper barrel path. I also like what James has been talking about regarding down to the lag position.

EDIT:
Correct me if I'm wrong, I know you have been talking a lot about "down to" = linear push type motion. When I get to launch position, my bat splits my head 45% (doesn't have to be the same for everybody), I'm in a strong leveraged position to engage the large muscles of my body. My core pulls, my hands do start down along with the rotation of my shoulders while maintaining good posture. What do you think is happening to the barrel here? Of course it turns/arcs, all these forces acting against it, the shoulders are turning, the barrel turns into lag position. From there hammer/chop/drive the barrel into the ball while maintaining good posture(keeps behind and through the ball for a long time and prevents you from pushing the barrel).. of course all of this is a lot more fluid then how I'm breaking it all down

I don't think down to automatically means push motion. I see it as a negative angle of attack.
I think the movements that cause the barrel to turn or arc are completely different than the ones that cause lag.
TTB is torque, rotational, angular, force away from the center of mass, leverage, multiplication.
Lag is parallel bat movement, linear, drag, pause, translational, force at the center of mass no leverage, no multiplication.
Torque has no pause mechanism, no way to slow the rotation other than to apply torque in another direction.
Chopping is torquing but not beneficial if applied downward at a negative attack angle. That would make the bat and ball range of collision very, very small. My problem isn't fundamentally with chopping so much as chopping down to.

 

[Bobby Shirer]

My DD had this issue last year. On video taken from behind, I could see the barrel getting pulled laterally across the ball through contact. Part of the issue was her being too dominant with shoulder rotation as her power source, and the barrel was not rotating enough to get properly aligned with her lead forearm at contact. Her work with learning how to TTB more aggressively from go, and moving her power source into her rear hip helped her get the barrel squared up a lot better. Subsequently, her quickness and power both improved.

Yep, front side dominant arm pull.
That drill where the hitter pulls the knob causes that parallel path.
Hands moving across the centerline instead of turning the barrel to the ball.
The delivery from the back hip is the fix.
Interestingly, bat wrap helps because the bat can get on plane really deep. Puts you in a better hand torque position, better leverage with more room to take advantage of it.

 

[Bobby Shirer]

Here's something to think about, the isolated downswing arm movement is the exact opposite of that, combined with rotation

Reminds me of this pretty unique "feel" move. (It's just sans-rotation).

View attachment 17593

do this, with rotation around your spine, and your belly button pointed at the plate.
(Not specifically directed at you julray).

Also for golf check out malaska on youtube. He makes the game as easy as it can get.
(Specifically directed at you julray)

I like that his hands never get to his right side.

 

[Bonesaw]

Yep, front side dominant arm pull.
That drill where the hitter pulls the knob causes that parallel path.
Hands moving across the centerline instead of turning the barrel to the ball.
The delivery from the back hip is the fix.
Interestingly, bat wrap helps because the bat can get on plane really deep. Puts you in a better hand torque position, better leverage with more room to take advantage of it.

Sounds like more down at first instead of forward?

And I agree bat wrap is a hallmark of power.
I think some confuse it with lag.

 

[Bobby Shirer]

I can't keep up with this thread. I am sorry for bringing back an older post. I agree with a lot of what you suggest. I found myself reading one of your longer posts at the beginning of thread thinking, yes, yes, yes, yes, no. I am having a hard time getting past "actively using the hand & wrists" to get on plane.

I see the barrel path go backwards and getting on plane very early. Hands still very deep. My issue is exactly how to get into that "on plane' position. I am trying these things myself. I am finding, for me (an old out of shape dad who hasn't seen a gym is a long time), when I actively use my hands & wrists, there is definitely barrel dump. Or very specifically, what Donaldson is talking about here. "Too handsy":



Perhaps I am too over baking the use of hands & wrists.

In watching this gif below, I am seeing the TTB action due actively slotting the elbow. The hands & wrists are keeping the bat to forearm angle consistent, which turns the barrel as the forearm moves with the elbow.

As I said, so much of what you said makes sense to me. It is just this one part of the process where I am having a hard time reconciling. Am I misunderstanding something?

No, you have it correct. The hands happen to be where the feel of the torque is sensed the most. I think of "handsy" as being floppy, loose hands that don't transfer the torque of the arm movements efficiently.
I have a problem with the idea that the bat should be held loosely. I much prefer a death grip and the oar lock approach. I know I'll spend hours explaning it to all the knuckleheads here, but I see it as a power movement and loose hands allow too much slack.
The barrel dump is loosing the grip required to apply the torque.
The chopping down movement that Bonds promotes is the death grip that I'm talking about. The other fix is to use your legs and shoulders more.
.

 

[Work=wins]