Gertrude
The hands end up in the same spot in both. The barrel paths are very different.
The hands end up in the same spot in both. The barrel paths are very different.
Turn the Barrel? Swing down?
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yes. It gets the swing going in the right direction. The feel could be in the hands. TTB is very different. It’s drag. Or it is a cast. TTB is nothing. What you see the pros do is prepare to throw or whip the barrel. Or as Josh D says ‘punch’.
If you miss the opportunity to connect and disconnect to late. You’re dragging the barrel. That’s exactly what the Lauren chamberlain vid was about. The Pujols video was about staying inside to long. Basically a hip slot move without forces acting on the barrel. It’s also drag. If you’re not throwing the barrel early you’re doing it wrong basically.
Gertrude
Down in back.This went 460ft. There’s a reason Ted said the swing is slightly up.
Down in back.This went 460ft. There’s a reason Ted said the swing is slightly up.
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Gertrude
He is getting on plane early. He is not swinging down out front and trying to get on plane out front.
TTB to a tee and tilt combined.
edit: swing from 12 to 6 which is down.
He is getting on plane early. He is not swinging down out front and trying to get on plane out front.
TTB to a tee and tilt combined.
edit: swing from 12 to 6 which is down.
Last edited:
- Apr 17, 2019
- 334
- 63
Thanks Shawn, I totally see what you're saying. I feel like I get TTB - even before I knew it had a name (probably before it did have a name, I'm pretty old, lol), it's how I think about the swing.
I cleaned up my original post to make a little more sense out of context, and even though seeking to be understood on the internet is a fool's errand, here I go, lol ...
I never got 'swing down', it just didn't make sense why you'd want to cut across the plane of the pitch on the fool notion that you're going to impart top spin on the ball (as you commonly hear it explained). ... And then there's the Miggy gif that TDS shared above. I see the arrows. I didn't see the swing down. In fact, I see TTB all day. Looks to me like a high inside ball that he's staying tight to the body and turning on hard. The whole debate was starting to smack of is the dress gold or blue. I see gold and will never understand how it could be blue. I know Lauren Chamberlain talks about how she feels swing down, but then the barrel clearly gets on plane and below her hands before contact like any sane person (see shots in my original post).
I had given up on personally understanding swing down, and shrugging my shoulders and saying some people must just feel it that way. A high level swing looks materially the same when dissected frame by frame (pitch location arguments aside) whether the player is advocating swing down or otherwise. So if you think you're swinging down, okay. If it helps you release the barrel on time, have at it. And this is why I typically stay out of the hitting technical area - I have nothing useful to contribute.
But @Work=wins said something that actually clicked this time and felt worth dropping here for other folks confused by the debate. Not clicked like I agree necessarily, but clicked like I get it - that Swing Down isn't about bat path, it's about the hands. "The feel should be like the hands are beating the hips to the ball." And that he feels the swing is actually initiated by the rear arm starting the release action. (Please correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth, w=w.) I'm sure he's said it before, but I missed it in the noise.
So I get it, now maybe? Again, this may be a 'duh' observation, but I feel body, you feel hands. When I try to incorporate the feel of hands to the hips or beating the hips to the ball, it feels pushy. I assume that when a swing down person tries to turn the barrel it feels draggy.
Naturally you can over-do either. Players can overbake turning the barrel and get draggy or pull off or fail to release on time. Players can overbake swinging down and fail to use their hips effectively or get their body in a position to be on plane. Leading to caricatures of the techniques that look like the gifs in post #3. (I don't want to see either of those swings as an actual live game swing).
But at the same time I can see components of both ttb and swing down in all decent swings now. Like flipping between seeing the old hag and the young woman. I see the arm angles, I see the barrel turning around the shoulder. And I can also seeing the hands pulling tight to the hip, which even as I write it feels bad and slow to me, but I can see what you're talking about. I may even see some swings are more 'swing down' dominant than others (though I'm still not convinced that doesn't have more to do with pitch location).
Most kids that I work with (12u and younger) come with a very armsy swing. Lots of cast, lots of drag, little lower half engagement. My goal with those kids is to de-emphasize the hands. I guarantee their hands are already beating their hips - they're lucky if their hips make it to the finish line! But once you have your body assembled and swing sequenced correctly - I can see how 'swing down' was an ah-hah moment for people like Mike Trout and Lauren Chamberlain. I doubt they were dragging before they adopted a 'swing down' mindset, but at some point that cue clicked and they found a little 'extra'.
I'm just a coach, never was an elite player. I don't feel it. But that doesn't mean other people don't. It doesn't mean that the cue 'swing down' might not help some kid. So I'm going to put it in my repertoire. I've had success with a TTB approach to the swing and don't plan to abandon that. But for the kids who have overbaked it; are flying open, or dragging, wrapping, or dumping the barrel... For them I might use a cue of 'pull the hands down to the front hip' or 'hands beat the hips'. Though I don't know if I can bring myself to say 'swing down' because of how easy that is to misinterpret. But we'll see.
So maybe there's room for both? And with my "can't we all just get along?" moment behind me, I'll retreat back to the shadows of the hitting forum and let y'all flame away.
Seriously though, love learning from all y'all so if you have any thoughts about how wrong I am, love to hear them.
I cleaned up my original post to make a little more sense out of context, and even though seeking to be understood on the internet is a fool's errand, here I go, lol ...
I never got 'swing down', it just didn't make sense why you'd want to cut across the plane of the pitch on the fool notion that you're going to impart top spin on the ball (as you commonly hear it explained). ... And then there's the Miggy gif that TDS shared above. I see the arrows. I didn't see the swing down. In fact, I see TTB all day. Looks to me like a high inside ball that he's staying tight to the body and turning on hard. The whole debate was starting to smack of is the dress gold or blue. I see gold and will never understand how it could be blue. I know Lauren Chamberlain talks about how she feels swing down, but then the barrel clearly gets on plane and below her hands before contact like any sane person (see shots in my original post).
I had given up on personally understanding swing down, and shrugging my shoulders and saying some people must just feel it that way. A high level swing looks materially the same when dissected frame by frame (pitch location arguments aside) whether the player is advocating swing down or otherwise. So if you think you're swinging down, okay. If it helps you release the barrel on time, have at it. And this is why I typically stay out of the hitting technical area - I have nothing useful to contribute.
But @Work=wins said something that actually clicked this time and felt worth dropping here for other folks confused by the debate. Not clicked like I agree necessarily, but clicked like I get it - that Swing Down isn't about bat path, it's about the hands. "The feel should be like the hands are beating the hips to the ball." And that he feels the swing is actually initiated by the rear arm starting the release action. (Please correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth, w=w.) I'm sure he's said it before, but I missed it in the noise.
So I get it, now maybe? Again, this may be a 'duh' observation, but I feel body, you feel hands. When I try to incorporate the feel of hands to the hips or beating the hips to the ball, it feels pushy. I assume that when a swing down person tries to turn the barrel it feels draggy.
Naturally you can over-do either. Players can overbake turning the barrel and get draggy or pull off or fail to release on time. Players can overbake swinging down and fail to use their hips effectively or get their body in a position to be on plane. Leading to caricatures of the techniques that look like the gifs in post #3. (I don't want to see either of those swings as an actual live game swing).
But at the same time I can see components of both ttb and swing down in all decent swings now. Like flipping between seeing the old hag and the young woman. I see the arm angles, I see the barrel turning around the shoulder. And I can also seeing the hands pulling tight to the hip, which even as I write it feels bad and slow to me, but I can see what you're talking about. I may even see some swings are more 'swing down' dominant than others (though I'm still not convinced that doesn't have more to do with pitch location).
Most kids that I work with (12u and younger) come with a very armsy swing. Lots of cast, lots of drag, little lower half engagement. My goal with those kids is to de-emphasize the hands. I guarantee their hands are already beating their hips - they're lucky if their hips make it to the finish line! But once you have your body assembled and swing sequenced correctly - I can see how 'swing down' was an ah-hah moment for people like Mike Trout and Lauren Chamberlain. I doubt they were dragging before they adopted a 'swing down' mindset, but at some point that cue clicked and they found a little 'extra'.
I'm just a coach, never was an elite player. I don't feel it. But that doesn't mean other people don't. It doesn't mean that the cue 'swing down' might not help some kid. So I'm going to put it in my repertoire. I've had success with a TTB approach to the swing and don't plan to abandon that. But for the kids who have overbaked it; are flying open, or dragging, wrapping, or dumping the barrel... For them I might use a cue of 'pull the hands down to the front hip' or 'hands beat the hips'. Though I don't know if I can bring myself to say 'swing down' because of how easy that is to misinterpret. But we'll see.
So maybe there's room for both? And with my "can't we all just get along?" moment behind me, I'll retreat back to the shadows of the hitting forum and let y'all flame away.
Seriously though, love learning from all y'all so if you have any thoughts about how wrong I am, love to hear them.
Gertrude
The hands end up in the same place, correct. The barrel paths are very different, correct.
The hands end up in the same place, correct. The barrel paths are very different, correct.
- Oct 2, 2017
- 2,283
- 113
What else is he supposed to do with that pitch, Its mid shin height?
