About the Drop

[ArmWhip]

I was going to use kinesthesia but went with proprioception instead.

 

[radness]

I think we teach in different worlds, for you it is probably the rarified air of Division 1 or at least college bound pitchers. I have to first teach IR to every girl who comes to me for lessons. Worse, if they have seen another pitching 'instructor' I have to wean them away from HE. When they finally get to where they can reliably use IR (months) most them have a 'cut' fastball, a mix of top and bullet. That seems like the natural spin for most of them. At this point we are still refining mechanics, working on velocity and consistency. After introducing the change up, which is usually a disaster, I move on to top spin, or should I say the drop. At this point they will contort their delivery in an attempt to get 6-12. Some of them have natural top spin and if I try to get them to add additional RPM it often causes issues. For the girls who have been with me for a couple of years it's a different story. They have the knowledge and proprioception to be able to refine their delivery and spin the ball in different ways.

You seem to think that a pitch that doesn't move is bad. I believe that pitcher needs pitches that do different things. If all they have is a 6-12 fastball and a change up they are predictable and a flat fastball up in the zone might be useful. And we have all seen plenty of bullet spin riseballs.

Just to share everyone good discussion to read different perspectives!

 

[Bonesaw]

You also have to keep in mind how the brain naturally computes a pitch's trajectory and comes up with a predicted point of contact. There is science about this out there. If the brain overestimates the speed of a pitch the bat will be early and also, very importantly, swing over the ball. If it underestimates the speed the bat will be late and swing under the ball. So, to take advantage of this, generally speaking, slower pitches should be down in the zone and faster ones up in the zone. The science has also shown that changes in velocity are more effective than changes in location when it comes to fooling hitters and limiting contact.

I am puzzled by your perspective on this topic. You have proven (to me anyways) to be quite savvy and knowledgeable in regards to pitching. I am very new compared to you(and Bill) but I cant help but think that A bullet spin pitch is either a crappy rise or a crappy drop. It doesnt achieve any of the deception you cite here.(predicted point of contact).

In the verlander video I shared ealier it showed that his four seamer finishes 10 inches above where the hitters brain would think it should(accounting for gravity and trajectory and what not). For me that classifies as a movement pitch. If you watch the video (from ~4:00 on) he shows a chart that his four seamer finishes ~10 inches higher than it "should" while his "fall off the table" 12:6 curve finishes only 7 inches lower than "it should"(accounting for trajectory, velocity and gravity). So his "straight fastball" actually deceives the brain more than his knee-buckling curve. Heres the video again. I found that part to be quite interesting.(yes the change in speed is a big part of the curves efficacy!) EDIT: I ignored horizontal movement which also plays a role I would imagine. The curve moves much more horizontally.




Another interesting thing is the two seamer in baseball. The two seamer in baseball appears to have much more movement to the "eye" but Im not sure it tricks the brain any better. I watched alot of playoff baseball this year and saw alot of those 99 mph 2 seamers getting barreled up.(dustin may!) This is merely anectdotal haha!

I have a young DD and I'm very hesitant to accept anything but pretty good end over end on her "fastball". Maybe if she could throw bullet spin like 5 mph faster but even then i would wonder why she couldnt throw drop spin that fast.

Anyways thanks to you and Mr. Hillhouse for having a great debate. I appreciate these forums immensely thanks to people/coaches like you guys.

 

[Mike-Coach Q]

I don’t know if this is helpful but we use the Chinese jump rope to work on the drop ball.

 

[radness]

What i find odd is to look at a bb pitcher when talking about underhand fastpitch'es...
Understand how folks like to compair things,

This is what i notice most from catching.
Even pitchers taught the same thing,
even use same grip,
Different result.
Small technical nuances of the athlete effecting results.
Stronger or less strong
Grip strength or not
Flexible body or rigid
Excetra...

Know with certainty
never has any students or pitchers have caught been exactly the same as another.

*Reminds me to keep saying
Look for the SUCCESS.
(Just sayin'
Some stare at mechanics,
and miss the results! )
We take the foundation of mechanics and make it our own!

 

[radness]

I don’t know if this is helpful but we use the Chinese jump rope to work on the drop ball.

Thats interesting!
Tools that promote goals.

 

[ArmWhip]

I am puzzled by your perspective on this topic. You have proven (to me anyways) to be quite savvy and knowledgeable in regards to pitching. I am very new compared to you(and Bill) but I cant help but think that A bullet spin pitch is either a crappy rise or a crappy drop. It doesnt achieve any of the deception you cite here.(predicted point of contact).

In a perfect world you are correct, it is considered a crappy rise.

Why is a 'drop' effective, because it moves downward more than the brain expects, but in comparison to what? What is the brain expecting, a 6-12 fastball (isn't that a drop?), a bullet spin fastball, something in between? If a pitcher throws 6-12 spin all the time the brain will adapt and a flat fastball becomes the unexpected pitch. Also, in the real world there is video of pitcher after pitcher throwing a bullet spin 'crappy rise'. I won't bother to link to the Rachel Garcia video that has been posted here numerous times. Bill won't be happy with me but on occasion I have taught bullet spin, as an alternative, to a pitcher that throws exclusively 6-12. In a perfect world I agree it's top spin, back spin, change up, and maybe some side spin.

A question for the dad's who's daughter's throw a drop, does she throw a fastball, if so how does it spin?

 

[Hillhouse]

In a perfect world you are correct, it is considered a crappy rise.

Why is a 'drop' effective, because it moves downward more than the brain expects, but in comparison to what? What is the brain expecting, a 6-12 fastball (isn't that a drop?), NO, not if it doesn't go down or your not wanting it to go down on purpose (which I don't understand). a bullet spin fastball, something in between? More and more god hitters are being trained to identify spin of the ball, bullet spin gives them a great chance to see that very thing. Plus, bullet spin guarantees the ball isn't going to move so, again, I don't understand the purpose. Teaching someone bullet spin in lieu of 6/12 spin will make the necessary dropball spin even harder to learn. Once the muscle memory of twisting the wrist comes into play, it's hard to break. I truly believe this is why and how the "turn over drop" got started. Some coaches didn't know how to correct bullet spin so they started a drop like this. Yes, this can produce topspin and make the ball go down but, I'm not a fan of the mechanical changes necessary to throw a "turn over drop" instead of a regular one. But that's me. If a pitcher throws 6-12 spin all the time the brain will adapt and a flat fastball becomes the unexpected pitch. Really? You wanna throw a pitch that you "hope" they let go? Yes, absolutely you can get away with this and it might work once in a while on that "unexpected" thing but that is a pitching version of Russian Roulette. Also, in the real world there i s video of pitcher after pitcher throwing a bullet spin 'crappy rise'. I won't bother to link to the Rachel Garcia video that has been posted here numerous times. This is up for debate but, I still think Garcia's effectiveness isn't because of movement on her pitches, because anything not spinning correctly has no chance to move properly. I believe she gets away with a lot because she throws 70+ mph. Not many others do that in women's fastpitch. I think she keeps the ball low which makes ANYTHING up in the zone 10x more tempting to the hitter. Playing a guessing game at the plate with someone who can blow it past you is a dangerous thing to do as a hitter. Bill won't be happy with me but on occasion I have taught bullet spin, as an alternative, to a pitcher that throws exclusively 6-12. In a perfect world I agree it's top spin, back spin, change up, and maybe some side spin.

A question for the dad's who's daughter's throw a drop, does she throw a fastball, if so how does it spin?

Arm, on the contrary. Feel free to teach whatever you like. Although for the life of me I cannot understand why you'd want to "teach" a bullet spin rise, instead of correcting it to become backspin. But to each their own.

That said, I think... no, I KNOW FOR A FACT, the drop's effectiveness isn't about my brain thinking anything. A drop ball moves. It falls OUT of the field of vision (or the bottom of it) which is why it can be a harder pitch to hit than a rise which comes up INTO the field of vision. Regardless of whether anyone thinks the rise actually goes up or whether it "drops less" as others say, nobody has made such claims about the drop. The raging debate about whether the rise physically goes up or just angles/drops less, to the best of my knowledge, nobody has said that about the drop. The dropball physically goes down, the debate can rage whether the ball goes up. Anyway, a good drop moves down. A great drop breaks down sharply. That's what makes it hard to hit, and even harder to square up for a batter.

I also did a few things in BOLD above in response to a few things.

Anyway, someone mentioned earlier about Armwhip and I debating... that was never my intent. We have some different ideas about things, it's up to the reader to figure out what they wanna do. But, I have nothing but respect for Armwhip who states his views, opinions, teachings, etc. We may not agree on everything but, it's always good to discuss things and give people another perspective.

 

[jdint]

A question for the dad's who's daughter's throw a drop, does she throw a fastball, if so how does it spin?

Interesting question. DD is 2nd year 12u. In games her fastball has more 12-6 dropping action. I'm not saying it's perfect 12-6, but the ball generally drops a decent amount. Her drop ball, which is her go to pitch right now, drops considerably more, but is a bit slower. (It's a rollover style pitch, and yes I know that's a whole different discussion)

She had a lot of success this fall, even when playing up in 14u tournaments, but the last top level 12u team we played started figuring her out the third time through the order and hitting her hard. This is when I would have liked for her to have a bullet spin fastball that finished up around the numbers. Would it be better to have a good 6-12 rise ball? Sure, but we haven't even started working on that yet, and I'm starting to wonder if a fast bullet spin rise ball isn't plenty effective. Especially when paired with mostly dropping pitches.

 

[smiley1511]

What's the correlation b/w spin rate and drop? i.e. - 40 mph / 50 mph pitch, how much more does the ball drop for each X increase in spin? Is this "chartable"? 2000 rpm over 40' = x inches, vs. 2400 rpm. I'm guessing on the rpms - I don't have that chart that was posted a few weeks ago up in front of me that showed TB/HS/D1 spin rates, so I'm not sure what the actual difference in rpm is b/w a FB and DB.

Maybe there's too many variables? I would expect there to be a difference (in height change) when comparing a bullet spin FB to a 12-6 DB, but is it also significant b/w a 12-6 FB and a 12-6 DB? Is the "contortion" to get the extra (100/200/300?) rpm worth it?

A good to great 12-6 drop should be in the high teens to 22 for rps and that is the same for a 12-6 fastball. If the fastball has more of a bullet spin then the number would be more in the mid to high twenties rps. The higher the rps the more likely it is closer to bullet than 12-6. As long as form is not neglected and there is good whip in the arm then the wrist action can be increased to impart more spin. The tighter the rotation the more the ball will move