About the Drop

[sluggers]

a coach telling a pitcher to "shorten the stride" is essentially telling the pitcher to "let it go earlier". That's all shortening of the stride does, it brings the release point up quicker.

Personally, I don't think anyone has to shorten their stride to find the release point, it can be done with repetition and practice. It's just a timing issue. Shortening the stride can lead to some things which aren't so good: disruption of mechanics, tipping the pitch to the hitter, inability to regain rhythm after changing the step, etc. I'm not going to say I have NEVER told a pitcher to do this shorter stride, I have. But, it's a last resort for someone who just can't find the release point. Once we get it, I'll get her going right back to normal stride for the same pitch.

Exactly.

 

[Hillhouse]

I have seen pitchers with a drop and a 6-12 spin fastball that look identical. If so what is the purpose of keeping both or saying you have both? If I had a RevFire and it showed a significant difference in RPM I might be more inclined not to trust my perception.

I always look at pitches in terms of the pitcher's overall arsenal. If a pitcher throws a 'drop' that is noticeably slower than their off axis fastball both have value. 'Drop' down in the zone, fastball at the top of the zone. And you also have to take into account the pitcher's ability to locate each of their pitches. A pitch that misses it's location has less value regardless of how much break or velocity it has.

There are only general rules when it comes to these things, each pitcher is an individual creation. My job is to accentuate their strengths, improve their weaknesses and make sure they understand both.

I have seen pitchers with a drop and a 6-12 spin fastball that look identical. If so what is the purpose of keeping both or saying you have both? If I had a RevFire and it showed a significant difference in RPM I might be more inclined not to trust my perception.

You see, this is where you lose me. If the pitches look identical, then why would there ever be a need for a pitch to be straight and not move? If the spin and mechanics are correct, and there's truly 12/6 spin, then any additional time spent working on a "Fastball" is time taken away from perfecting her drop.

I always look at pitches in terms of the pitcher's overall arsenal. If a pitcher throws a 'drop' that is noticeably slower than their off axis fastball both have value. 'Drop' down in the zone, fastball at the top of the zone. And you also have to take into account the pitcher's ability to locate each of their pitches. A pitch that misses it's location has less value regardless of how much break or velocity it has.

I guess my first question would be, why is the drop "noticeably slower"? What is being done differently that this pitch is not equal to her "fastball" in speed? I just don't get how someone with an "off axis fastball" can be thrown as fast as one with straight spin. "Off axis" would mean there is a turn of the wrist at some point, which will take way from it's snap. Wouldn't turning the wrist, instead of snapping it, make the "fastball" go a little slower? Like a curveball in baseball, it's 10-15mph slower in many cases because of the wrist turn for the spin. Wouldn't something happen like that here too, on a smaller scale? Any turn of the wrist would take away from it's snap, no? Or am I misunderstanding?

There are only general rules when it comes to these things, each pitcher is an individual creation. My job is to accentuate their strengths, improve their weaknesses and make sure they understand both.

 

[robertc3]

Maybe there's too many variables? I would expect there to be a difference (in height change) when comparing a bullet spin FB to a 12-6 DB, but is it also significant b/w a 12-6 FB and a 12-6 DB? Is the "contortion" to get the extra (100/200/300?) rpm worth it?

I am sure that the actual difference in the amount of drop could be calculated assuming a 12-6 spin at various speeds and spin rates, but I have not observed that any "contortion" is needed to get the best drop. I have played around with asking girls what would happen if you tried to spin it faster?"* The biggest things that make a drop maximally effective are that it comes out of the hand as flat as possible so all drop takes the ball down from release and that it can be commanded down in the zone. A good drop thrown faster is more effective than a good drop thrown slower (assuming it is the girl's fastest pitch and not an offspeed pitch), so we always work on speed while maintaining great movement.

*there is a body of literature on internal cues, external cues, and self-directed cues. All have their place and I really like cues that allow the girl to just let her body do its thing. Not at 10u, but certainly at 16u and 18u it can really work and allows the girls control and keeps them athletic.

 

[radness]

Visually measuring cant count the rotations
But dang i really like hard drop and off speed drop.
Can drop the same.
Spin visually similar on both.

And NO fastball doesnt mean its faster than other pitches.

@Mr.B really enjoy reading your highlighted points in your posts here.

 

[ArmWhip]

I think we teach in different worlds, for you it is probably the rarified air of Division 1 or at least college bound pitchers. I have to first teach IR to every girl who comes to me for lessons. Worse, if they have seen another pitching 'instructor' I have to wean them away from HE. When they finally get to where they can reliably use IR (months) most them have a 'cut' fastball, a mix of top and bullet. That seems like the natural spin for most of them. At this point we are still refining mechanics, working on velocity and consistency. After introducing the change up, which is usually a disaster, I move on to top spin, or should I say the drop. At this point they will contort their delivery in an attempt to get 6-12. Some of them have natural top spin and if I try to get them to add additional RPM it often causes issues. For the girls who have been with me for a couple of years it's a different story. They have the knowledge and proprioception to be able to refine their delivery and spin the ball in different ways.

You seem to think that a pitch that doesn't move is bad. I believe that pitcher needs pitches that do different things. If all they have is a 6-12 fastball and a change up they are predictable and a flat fastball up in the zone might be useful. And we have all seen plenty of bullet spin riseballs.

 

[Hillhouse]

Arm, I have no beef with you. We can agree to disagree about the fastball. It's all good, no worries.

One point of contention: yes, I have a few pitchers both college and nearing college age, but I also have a ton of younger and beginners. I still get in the trenches with the beginners, it keeps me fresh!! So I'm right there with you brother.

 

[jdint]

Oh man I can't wait to drop me some PROPRIOCEPTION on my unsuspecting DD.

 

[Hillhouse]

Oh man I can't wait to drop me some PROPRIOCEPTION on my unsuspecting DD.

No clue what this means.

 

[ArmWhip]

What's the correlation b/w spin rate and drop? i.e. - 40 mph / 50 mph pitch, how much more does the ball drop for each X increase in spin? Is this "chartable"? 2000 rpm over 40' = x inches, vs. 2400 rpm. I'm guessing on the rpms - I don't have that chart that was posted a few weeks ago up in front of me that showed TB/HS/D1 spin rates, so I'm not sure what the actual difference in rpm is b/w a FB and DB.

Maybe there's too many variables? I would expect there to be a difference (in height change) when comparing a bullet spin FB to a 12-6 DB, but is it also significant b/w a 12-6 FB and a 12-6 DB? Is the "contortion" to get the extra (100/200/300?) rpm worth it?

You also have to keep in mind how the brain naturally computes a pitch's trajectory and comes up with a predicted point of contact. There is science about this out there. If the brain overestimates the speed of a pitch the bat will be early and also, very importantly, swing over the ball. If it underestimates the speed the bat will be late and swing under the ball. So, to take advantage of this, generally speaking, slower pitches should be down in the zone and faster ones up in the zone. The science has also shown that changes in velocity are more effective than changes in location when it comes to fooling hitters and limiting contact.

 

[jdint]

No clue what this means.

LOL. It means nothing. I've just never heard that word in my life. Had to look it up, but I like it and plan on using it whenever possible.