Stats

[Scorekeeper]

I'm just saying stats, HS or travel, played zero role in her recruiting process and I'm sure many other's on this board experienced the same thing.

I’m sure you believe that and I won’t argue about it any longer. But to say that same thing is true for the tens of thousands of players all over the country each and every year is really a stretch to me.

 

[Scorekeeper]

I agree they can't put any confidence in stats. However, if a particular stat draws attention because of how low or how high it is, whether believable or not, then hasn't the main purpose been served? To draw attention to the player. Do we really think that if girl sent an email detailing her HS and TB numbers, let's assume they are outstanding (.790 with 15 HRs in 30 games), that the coach won't take a look at her or at least make a phone call about her? Whether believable or not they may grab the attention of 1 coach out of 100, that's all you need though isn't it. For 1 coach to take interest in you, you are only going to play for 1 school at a time. I would think give them everything and let them decide what they will take serious and what they won't.

Well said Easton33.

 

[MNDad]

Thanx for the link.

I understand a bit of exaggeration in trying to make a point. Heck, we all do it at one time or another. But that link shows pretty much where a lot of the misunderstanding comes in. That 1st girl had only had 27 at bats which tells me the numbers were from early in the season. But if you look at that 3rd girl’s numbers and check her career stats you’ll see she averaged .654 over 3 seasons with an OPS of 1.766 for 217 ABs.

Even if she was playing in the most garbage league in the state, those numbers have meaning, and that meaning should come from whoever’s looking. Somewhere along the line, somebody has got to do at least a wee bit of analysis and work to figure out how much those things mean. With the tools available, anyone can filter out the players they feel would be worth more of a look, and that’s all I’ve been talking about.

That link also shows something else. There are many parts of the country that have something like that, where a local paper does the HS numbers to some degree. But, if someone is truly interested in the widest audience, why not try to use the service with the widest national use? If I’m a coach I don’t’ have the time to look all over the web for such things. It’s great for the local colleges because they know about it, but how would a coach in Fl, Tx, or Ca know about the Star Tribune site?

The saddest part of this whole thing is that there isn’t any one place to keep the numbers for all sports, even at the HS ag level. MaxPreps is by far and away the biggest in the nation as far as HS sports numbers go, but they don’t touch anything but HS sports. There’s a lot of reasons for that, but it’s not likely to change soon. But even if every HS team used its services, we all know that would really only represent about a third of all play. That other 2/3rds is where the brass ring lies.

If there were a central place to keep all the numbers, my guess is a completely different dynamic would appear. Personally, I think it would be great, but at this point in time and into the near future it’s a possibility but definitely not a probability.

I doubt that even local coaches put any weight in the Star Tribune stats. When parents and coaches enter stats to the Star Tribune many are doing so to nominate a player for "athlete of the week". In these cases the stats only reflect the best games of the season.

In the case of the third girl down she's from Northern Minnesota and in the medium school class. She could very well be the best softball player in northern Minnesota. That would make her stats as valuable as the best hockey player in southern florida.

 

[Scorekeeper]

I doubt that even local coaches put any weight in the Star Tribune stats. When parents and coaches enter stats to the Star Tribune many are doing so to nominate a player for "athlete of the week". In these cases the stats only reflect the best games of the season.

Which is another reason to prefer MaxPreps over local services like that one. Only coaches or their surrogates can enter stats into MP. But don’t get me wrong, there are unscrupulous coaches out there as well who would enter false data to make a player or themselves look better to whoever might look. The difference is, it would be much rarer for a coach to do that on purpose than a parent.

In the case of the third girl down she's from Northern Minnesota and in the medium school class. She could very well be the best softball player in northern Minnesota. That would make her stats as valuable as the best hockey player in southern florida.

I’m sure you know a heck of a lot more about Mn HSSB than I do, but I learned a looooong time ago that its very seldom that any one person can speak for everyone else.

 

[MNDad]

Which is another reason to prefer MaxPreps over local services like that one. Only coaches or their surrogates can enter stats into MP. But don’t get me wrong, there are unscrupulous coaches out there as well who would enter false data to make a player or themselves look better to whoever might look. The difference is, it would be much rarer for a coach to do that on purpose than a parent.

I actually enter the stats for our HS team into both the Star Tribune and Max Preps and I don't see max preps stats as more reliable, but as you said one person can't speak for everyone.

I will concede that stats are important in determining post season awards and that awards might get the notice of college coaches. They would have limited value though because in MN alone 144 girls were awarded some type of “all-state” honor in 2014. Still, anything that catches a coaches eye is worth it so in that aspect you’re right.

 

[Greenmonsters]

Which is another reason to prefer MaxPreps over local services like that one. Only coaches or their surrogates can enter stats into MP. But don’t get me wrong, there are unscrupulous coaches out there as well who would enter false data to make a player or themselves look better to whoever might look. The difference is, it would be much rarer for a coach to do that on purpose than a parent.



I’m sure you know a heck of a lot more about Mn HSSB than I do, but I learned a looooong time ago that its very seldom that any one person can speak for everyone else.

IME, MaxPreps for CT softball is the definition of garbage in, garbage out. Whether its unscrupulous coaches with agendas or ignorant scorekeepers, there's enough of both to spoil the soup.

 

[slingnit]

The biggest reason to not consider HS stats reliable is because of post season awards. Little Susie gives up decent contact to a hitter, third base gets a glove on it and should have made a play. Now home team score keeper, possibly little Susie's mom, gives 3rd an error because little Susie is up for Class B all state pitcher. I know some large schools have paid score keepers that stay unbiased but for the most part they are parents, asst coaches or even other players logging stats. And there is an agenda or at very least a slight bias when that happens.

 

[Scorekeeper]

I actually enter the stats for our HS team into both the Star Tribune and Max Preps and I don't see max preps stats as more reliable, but as you said one person can't speak for everyone.

I didn’t mean to imply they were any more reliable, but rather that they’re less likely to be biased the way they’d be if the HC wasn’t responsible for them. I also submit the stats to MP, but I don’t have a kid in the program to be biased about or to have an ulterior motive such as getting an award, ‘ship, or scouted.

I will concede that stats are important in determining post season awards and that awards might get the notice of college coaches. They would have limited value though because in MN alone 144 girls were awarded some type of “all-state” honor in 2014. Still, anything that catches a coaches eye is worth it so in that aspect you’re right.

You’ve touched on much of what I’m trying to get across. It’s the same kind of thing when people argue stats shouldn’t be used to set lineups or determine PT. If someone tried to say they should be the only thing used or even the most important, I’d argue with them. But those who believe they aren’t a part of the entire BB/SB “process” is kidding themselves. It’s a matter of information. More is better than less. Valid is better than questionable.

 

[Scorekeeper]

…Our state is too small for 144 honors, that is ridiculous if not counting the "teams". We have maybe 8-10 that I consider important, and that includes all-met, etc. One I really like is voted on by players for the playoffs and finals!

Well, like any other statistic, one needs to put that 144 honors in some kind of context too. Mn has more than 60 different conferences in three divisions. If they’re anything like we are, they have conference honors and honors for things like all-city or all-metro. With 9 players on a team, even if they only honored 1 player at each position in each division they’d have 27 honorees.

But the point is, someone’s being HONOROED for something, and that sets them apart for the others even if it wasn’t a unanimous honor. As I’ve noted before, it’s on whoever’s doing the recruiting to do a little work in rating the players.

 

[Scorekeeper]

IME, MaxPreps for CT softball is the definition of garbage in, garbage out. Whether its unscrupulous coaches with agendas or ignorant scorekeepers, there's enough of both to spoil the soup.

Is that MaxPreps’ fault? To me, all they do is provide the service. They aren’t the stat police, nor should they be. They don’t choose who keeps score or enters the stats either, nor should they be. I wish they did a bit more in the way of validation checks on the numbers and I’ve told them so. But they’re a business and won’t change what they do unless there’s a demand. They’ve changed a great deal over the last dozen years or so because of demand, and they’ll change a lot more as more and people go to electronic scoring.

As for the Ct numbers being garbage, that’s Ct’s decision. Many state organizations have “partnered” with MaxPreps, and that’s the beginning of a process that makes everything more valid. But unlike the scorers in MLB who get paid to keep score and have everything they do monitored by several organizations that make sure they’re correct, how many amateur scorers do you know who get paid, and how many amateur teams do you know of who validity check the numbers?

In the end, progress is being made every day, but the size of the bureaucracy of amateur SB and BB cause changes to be very slow.