For Corlay

[BoardMember]

Corlay.........I make this comp for you from the 2 clips you posted..........One you list as "mid-season" and the other you list as "1st playoff"(?)..........

There is something GLARINGLY DIFFERENT between the whipping mechanics of these 2 pitches. One is much more closely related to the best pitchers in the game..........Can you tell the difference?

When you can see the difference in this simple clip, you might understand what the "buzz" is all about regarding I/R.........And why many people on this board are probably more educated then 90% of the pitching coaches out there regarding whip..........

I'm wondering if your DD had some "pitching lessons" between the mid-season clip and the 1st playoff clip in an attempt to made her "more accurate" come playoff time.........

Her overall mechanics are improved between the 2 clips.........However........She lost something else in the process..........

 

[corlay]

Thanks!
I really appreciate you taking the time and interest. Really.

Yes, I see it. (now that i know what to look for...)
Her finish on the earlier clip sure looks like she employed some degree of internal rotation *on that pitch*, doesn't it.

Yes, she's had regular instruction just about weekly during the interim between the two clips.
However, the release/arm motion has not been a stressed topic at all through this process. And certainly not ball/hand/arm positioning.

We've almost exclusively concentrated upon learning to load/push/stride and timing. (something that is greatly improved but still needs lots of work - not there yet)

So any manifestations of the well-defined "hello elbow" that you are seeing in the later clip is something that has developed in her motion without specific direction from me or her PC to do so. We talk more in general terms of "arm acceleration", "keep it close to your body", and "finish strong". Really, most of what we've been concentrating on is everything that happens *before* the windmill reaches the 12:00 position.

*Although*, DD has been fixated a bit lately on trying to "snap" the ball at release, and PC has been prompting her to "get behind the ball" more, so there you go.

The other thing to consider here is that my uploaded video clips are a single random sampling of a single pitch taken on two different days. No culling a collection of pitching vids from each session and selecting the "best one". So given that she just turned 10, we need to allow for the likelyhood that her motion doesn't look like *either* of these clips all the time. i think next, i will film her for 10 pitches in a game, and see how consistent she actually is with her mechanics. (this slomo app for my iphone is pretty dang cool! and telling...)

Now with her entering 10U-A All-Stars, and transitioning to 11"/35 from 12"/40, we had our first "small ball" session in the backyard yesterday morning. With this I started to give her bits of conceptual information, and we've modified our 9-3 and 12-3 drills to employ IR ball/hand/arm positioning. We then pitched full-motion, her velocity with the little ball at the closer distance is pretty *ridiculous*. Control was erratic, missing high a lot. But once she dials it in, shes going to be formidable in upcoming tournaments. In this session, when pitching full-motion, IR wasn't really factoring - yet. But this is something that we are going to work on.

First time doing IR 9-3 drill, she would have her static 9:00 position palm-up, then proceed to immediately twist it palm down and then deliver the pitch. Muscle-memory is a powerful factor to overcome. After 20 reps or so, she started to allow her body to rotate the hand *as* she was delivering the pitch, rather than *before*; so that was encouraging. We haven't even tried a 12-3 yet.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my conceptual understanding of IR is this: The "internal rotation" of the forearm is something that is anatomically *required* on every windmill pitch, anyway. But controlling *when* this rotation occurs can have improving affect upon ball speed/accuracy/etc.

In a very simplistic sense, the "IR" method as discussed here, really is just a delay of when that rotation occurs during the delivery motion - moving it closer to the time of release.
In looking at my DD when I had her demonstrate her delivery motion in "slomo", IR occurs for her between 12 and 9. She looks good at 12, "showing the ball", and by 9 she is already fully rotated to palm-down. To transition her to preferred IR mechanics, I need to teach her muscle-memory how to hold that palm up position longer and delay rotation to occur between 9-6.

 

[Ken B]

corlay,
Please consider, at least in the beginning, that I/R and whip are less about major muscle actions and more about being loose/fluid/natural. Sometimes, in an effort to overcome the previously ingrained mechanics, the new mechanics are forced and no more effective than the original. Hopefully as she feels it, the motion will become natural and when it does, both of you will see it.

When you say she misses high, is it high/outside?

 

[corlay]

Please consider, at least in the beginning, that I/R and whip are less about major muscle actions and more about being loose/fluid/natural. Sometimes, in an effort to overcome the previously ingrained mechanics, the new mechanics are forced and no more effective than the original. Hopefully as she feels it, the motion will become natural and when it does, both of you will see it.

ok, yes, point well taken Thanks.

When you say she misses high, is it high/outside?

typically, yes. (to RHB)

In our backyard, the area we pitch homeplate is situated between an oak tree on the RHB side, and a maple tree on the LHB side. So we have our own little code for pitches that miss the plate Right/Left by an unreasonable amount. Missing right (from pitcher's perspective) is an "Oak tree" and left is a "Maple tree".

She hardly ever throws a Oak Tree anymore, (last summer she struggle with this a lot) but sometimes struggles with Maple Trees. And usually high as well.

My limited knowledge and experience attribute this to her either not getting open enough during delivery, or closing her upper torso too soon. Usually my advice is to get a stronger and more aggressive push/stride and better turn (open) and that seems to fix things for her.

I have noticed during games, if she starts to get a little wild, she tends to stride less far and powerfully, getting her feet down well in advance of release, and "lifting" her release up and across her body (using a lot of shoulder). Significant decrease in velocity, and a high/outside pitch.

 

[Ken B]

I've noticed that high outside and low inside seem to be common when learning I/R.

Slowing down to aim seems to lead to inconsistent control. Your cue to push more aggressively seems to work with many kids.

 

[BoardMember]

Thanks!
I really appreciate you taking the time and interest. Really.

No problem.........

Yes, I see it. (now that i know what to look for...)
Her finish on the earlier clip sure looks like she employed some degree of internal rotation *on that pitch*, doesn't it.

Egggggsaclty.........

Yes, she's had regular instruction just about weekly during the interim between the two clips.
However, the release/arm motion has not been a stressed topic at all through this process. And certainly not ball/hand/arm positioning.

I figured as much.........The "easiest" part of the motion, especially to teach, comes in the part "before 12:00".........

We've almost exclusively concentrated upon learning to load/push/stride and timing. (something that is greatly improved but still needs lots of work - not there yet)

That part is definately improved........Something most any decent PC can achieve........

So any manifestations of the well-defined "hello elbow" that you are seeing in the later clip is something that has developed in her motion without specific direction from me or her PC to do so.

SO Not true........."Hello Elbow" is something that occurs from "FLAWED TEACHING".........Especially when I/R WAS present in the previous motion and is no longer "natural".........

We talk more in general terms of "arm acceleration", "keep it close to your body", and "finish strong". Really, most of what we've been concentrating on is everything that happens *before* the windmill reaches the 12:00 position.

EXCEPT the following:

*Although*, DD has been fixated a bit lately on trying to "snap" the ball at release, and PC has been prompting her to "get behind the ball" more, so there you go.

Funny how things become more clear when we really think about it............

The other thing to consider here is that my uploaded video clips are a single random sampling of a single pitch taken on two different days.

That's whats so telling about why I/R has SUCH a large following here..........One is OBVIOUSLY right......And the other is not.......And the fact that your DD has progressed in her "pre-12:00" mechanics is good.......But that, and a dime, will only make her an all-star rec ball pitcher........

First time doing IR 9-3 drill, she would have her static 9:00 position palm-up, then proceed to immediately twist it palm down and then deliver the pitch. Muscle-memory is a powerful factor to overcome.

Yes it is..........But it can be done..........

After 20 reps or so, she started to allow her body to rotate the hand *as* she was delivering the pitch, rather than *before*; so that was encouraging. We haven't even tried a 12-3 yet.

Don't........Until she's proficient from 9:00........

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my conceptual understanding of IR is this: The "internal rotation" of the forearm is something that is anatomically *required* on every windmill pitch, anyway.

I/R is not ONLY ABOUT THE FOREARM........It starts upstream of that in the humerus (Bicep)........Some pitches like Rise and Screw don't have as much forearm I/R for example........But they all have Bicep I/R..........Facing the ball up in back insures the bicep is in the proper position to start I/R from proximal to distal, as the kinetic chain transfers energy.........

But controlling *when* this rotation occurs can have improving affect upon ball speed/accuracy/etc.

ABSOLUTELY..........TOO early and you never get it.........TOO late and you miss it..........

In a very simplistic sense, the "IR" method as discussed here, really is just a delay of when that rotation occurs during the delivery motion - moving it closer to the time of release.

It's not "simply" about delaying I/R........It's about learning all about I/R.........Some never get to your DD's 12:00 position in order to mess it up on the way down.........

In looking at my DD when I had her demonstrate her delivery motion in "slomo", IR occurs for her between 12 and 9. She looks good at 12, "showing the ball", and by 9 she is already fully rotated to palm-down. To transition her to preferred IR mechanics, I need to teach her muscle-memory how to hold that palm up position longer and delay rotation to occur between 9-6.

Correct.........Now........What if you never learned about this forum. Never learned about I/R. And she continued to be taught "get behind the ball" and "push it" for the next 5 years?? You don't have to worry about that anymore........Because now you know the difference between right and wrong...........

That's why I wrote about the subject. That's why people here are hooked on I/R as a fundamental absolute to throwing a ball underhand PROPERLY...........

The fact that I don't sell books or DVD's doesn't make it subjective........

Good job..........

 

[Jojo]

Ha! That's what I see every time I see one my ex students that go to another instructor.

 

[Rocketech1]

Corlay - a couple of comments:
1) IR, among other benefits, allows for a tighter spin compared to the "push the ball down the circle" and "hello elbow" advocates;
2) Listen to BM, he knows what he is talking about and is consistent in his message;
3) Your DDs stride: her pivot foot loses contact with the ground during the stride (it's not dragging along the ground) and then when she plants she is kicking her foot towards 1st and slamming her hips shut. After she works on the IR and arm whip, this is the next area I would focus on, dragging the pivot foot (inside toe) all the way from the pitching plate to behind her stride foot until release of the ball.

 

[corlay]

Correct.........Now........What if you never learned about this forum. Never learned about I/R. And she continued to be taught "get behind the ball" and "push it" for the next 5 years?? You don't have to worry about that anymore........Because now you know the difference between right and wrong...........

again, - thanks.

and sorry for the initial skepticism.
I really didn't mean for my posts to come off as suggestions of conspiracy theory or cult following. I see in reviewing some past posts on the subject, you've been attacked a bit, and that's unfortunate. So I can understand why you're sensitive to the issue.

I do believe that these basic principles result in a delivery motion that not only optimizes human anatomy, but also minimizes unnatural stresses. Done correctly, it is amazing the *zip* one can put on the ball, all the while making it look very relaxed and effortless.

Now, the challenge is how to instill these movements into my DD's delivery.
(we have taken up this challenge together, as I do these drills right along with her while we "play catch")

I did film her in a bunch of pitches in a row while we worked out indoors the other day (its been a rainy week). She seems to be in a state of flux at the moment - some pitches look IR-ish, and some hello elbow-ish. So, I suppose I consider myself lucky to learn to focus on this now, and guide her eventual consistency down the "right" path.

Filmed her from behind, almost exclusively. Everything looking pretty good - *except* she's been fighting a pretty extreme glove hand "swim". We've been concentrating on that primarily our last few sessions since we identified this as to be a "problem". (man, why haven't I employed slo-mo vid until now, I cannot fathom. What an invaluable analysis and teaching tool!)

But point is, some of her 9-6 motion and releases looked like she was getting a small degree of "late rotation" just before release, and others looked as though her palm was already rotated downward at 9:00 and she was employing a push release. All pitches looked great @ 12:00 ("show the ball") and upper arm/elbow remain pretty tight to body.

We begin all of our initial warm-up exercises with 9-3 IR drills now, and she's slowly learning to not immediately rotate her palm downward and then deliver the pitch - but it is very slow coming. DD gets frustrated, so we keep concentration on these drills short - 10 min or so, for now. Each time it looks smoother/more natural, and I know that this can't be rushed. It'll get there, eventually, I'm confident, because even though she does get frustrated, she is also very self-determined to master this.

 

[corlay]

3) and then when she plants she is kicking her foot towards 1st and slamming her hips shut.

thanks for pointing this out.
A subtlety I might not have noticed otherwise.

Although there is still a lot of variability in her motion,
this action with her drag foot to 1st and hips is pretty consistently there.
(Verified with video)

After she works on the IR and arm whip, this is the next area I would focus on, dragging the pivot foot (inside toe) all the way from the pitching plate to behind her stride foot until release of the ball.

Will do!
Fighting a tendency to "swim" with the glove hand at release now, too.

Points her glove at target fine in beginning of motion, but then yanks away from her body and downward to her stride leg hip, right before and at release.