Arm whip

[SETPRO]

In fastpitch bullet spin is generated the other way, fingers sliding under the ball at release.

Totally agree.

That's why said it was a "my hypothesis".

The point I was also trying to make is that I don't think you can get that kind of speed on the pitch without good IR. Which is what I was also referencing to why lostcreek1 daughter was gaining speed with here 360 pitch. Specifically that when she threw the 360 that unconsciously she possibly was getting more of an IR arm path.

With respect to the bullet ball IR is predominant in terms of getting the rotation of the ball off of the index/forefinger. This is the rolling/raking affect that I speculated was taking place except I thought it happened over the ball as opposed to under the ball. Again my fastpitch ignorance.

Some points that I should've made her want to make but bailed out too soon with respect to Arm whip/IR discussion.

1. IR is driven by internal rotation of the shoulder (humerus). But what "sets the stage" for IR is ER (external rotation). External rotation preload the upper shoulder complex pre-tensioning so to speak to unload into IR.

2. Horizontal abduction abduction of the shoulders is important component of effective IR implementation. You can see this in a number of high-level fastpitch pitchers where there is a flexing back of the shoulders (adduction) and then bringing back together again (abduction). You can especially see the abduction after the ball is released.

Thanks again to ArmWhip for pointing out my misinformation.

 

[Shawn]

The biggest remaining mystery for me when it comes to pitching mechanics is how some elite pitchers throw bullet spin 'fastballs'. Bullet spin in softball equates to the slider in baseball, and in baseball fastballs (4 or 2 seam) are faster than sliders. Which makes sense to me because the fingers remain behind the ball and propel it forward. But in softball this doesn't seem to be the case. I base this on the fact that in a 'lab' setting both Jennie Finch and Yukiko Ueno threw bullet spin, and in the Amanda Scarborough Power Drive video, if you look closely at the ball after release, you can that it has bullet spin. Now it's possible that any or all of these pitchers throw a top spin pitch that has more velocity than the bullet spin they threw when the video was taken but I think that that's unlikely.

In fastpitch bullet spin is generated the other way, fingers sliding under the ball at release.

My best student throws bullet spin. Never tried to fix it because you just adjust it to throw a curve and rise. I think it has helped her.

 

[Hillhouse]

From the "I could not resist" department.

Found this particularly interesting:


Here's my "hypothesis":

Without seeing lostcreek1 daughters throwing video in the difference between how she throws her fastball versus her "360 degrees special" there's a possibility that what she's doing is some form of internal rotation when she throws the 360 special. I say this because it would account for both bullet spin and increased in ball speed.

Also I think it's quite easy to "conceptually throw" a bullet spin (also known an overhand baseball as a "Gyro Ball") with IR mechanics. The internal rotation of the shoulder with some wrist hand positioning lend itself quite nicely to a "raking over the ball action" generating a bullet/Gyro ball.



Enjoy!.

Often times when reading a post, an email, or text message it can be very easy to read an unintended "tone" into the message. What I mean is, when reading things it can be easy to misinterpret the words being written with an angry tone behind it. Or sarcasm. So having said that Setpro, I want to be very clear that I'm not saying this to be an a$$hole, a smarta$$ nor do I mean it in a bad negative way in anger. So I hope you accept that before continuing.

You mentioned your take is primarily your hypothesis. But what I don't understand is, why not go pitch some softballs and see for yourself how this happens, how to avoid it, etc. Basically, I'm asking why don't you test your theory by actually pitching? I'm not suggesting you ask for a USA team tryout or anything. But, I do believe a lot theories and hypothesis' could be put to the test by just going out and doing it.

Personally, I think the vast majority of questions asked on this forum could be answered by people who are willing to go throw a ball underhand for themselves. Not necessarily in a game, although that would be ideal. Very few know this, and I won't out him if he doesn't want to be outed here, there a member of this forum who's driven to Omaha multiple times to pitch with me and pick my so-called brain about pitching. While that is impressive enough that a male coach on this forum does that, the kicker is that he's doing it so he can go compete in the USA softball 60-over National championship next year. He's never pitched a game in his life, never been on a fastpitch field. But at over 60 yrs old he wants to put his coaching to the test, and he's already noticed things he does, doesn't do that he has applied to his students. And without a doubt, he's going to get a ton of street cred from the kids for going and playing in a National tournament. He should get ALL of our kudos for doing all of this in support and love for this game. I think this guy's actions display the greatest love for this game possible, the willingness to do it himself to make himself a better coach.

@ArmWhip I still can't wrap my head around the bulletspin thing. I mean, I realize most go by what they see on TV in the WCWS, and it's hard to ignore that evidence. But, the confusing part is still the same for me. I have caught Jordy Bahl's pitches in my own glove and none of what she throws has bullet spin. Not even on a bad day. So, if the ESPN cameras can make her pitches look like bulletspin, then what are they doing to everyone else whom I don't know and have never been in a pitching cage with? This may become a bigger conspiracy than the 2nd gunman/JFK theory. It simply doesn't make sense to me why any of her pitches would show bullet spin. The ONLY explanation I can think of is, her freshman year she had that arm injury. That injury absolutely crippled her riseball. So, again I don't know if the clip you posted was from her freshman year when she had the injury or not. I truly do not watch enough WCWS or college softball in general to know the answer. Do you happen to know, freshman year?

 

[ArmWhip]

Do you happen to know, freshman year?

It's from the the last WCWS Ok vs Tenn. What is different about this clip is that it's from the 3rd base side, most of the clips are from the left-center field angle, along with some from over the catcher's shoulder. I could see where it's possible that from behind the catcher or LCF the camera angle gives the ball rotation a distorted look, but this view is from 3rd base and looks to be accurate. And, yes, I go by what I see in video but I am also open to possibility that it's not an accurate duplication, that the camera angle changes the look.

 

[ArmWhip]

This video clearly shows back spin, so if the camera angle distorts the spin it's not by much.

 

[Northball]

This video clearly shows back spin, so if the camera angle distorts the spin it's not by much.

I have always suspected something about video isn't showing the whole story. I'm no expert on video so if it's frame rate or angle or camera distance or what...we lament so many pitches showing bullet spin and clueless commentators not seeing it. Maybe so. To me in the G Juarez clip I cannot pick up the rotation very well from the center field camera, which is how most pitches are seen on tv. If the commentator says it's a riseball, I say "Huh?! Didn't look like it to me." Then the ump cam doesn't seem to have many frames/second as the ball travel is choppy. Can't determine rotation for nothing.

It is much easier to see the 6-12 rotation from the closer camera front angle. Watch the rotation close-up at point of release, then see how it becomes less obvious as the camera zooms out. At least that's what I'm seeing, maybe my mind can't process like others do.

Commentators still say goofy stuff, and they may still call out pitches wrong, but we may have been harder on them than we should have when technical limitations may be contributing.

 

[ArmWhip]

I assume they have monitors and are seeing the same thing we are, otherwise they wouldn't know what to comment on. It's possible that the camera angle does distort the look of the spin a little. What looks like pure bullet spin may have a small percentage of back spin, From what I have seen working with my pitchers who can actually throw a rise with a lot of back spin is that they lose a significant amount of velocity. I have a first year 12U pitcher with 50-2 mph fastball, her pure back spin rise comes in at 40mph, we call it her rise-change. This upcoming season will be the first time she will use it in competition. It floats in and I think it will be effective at the lower levels. When you get to college, especially the higher divisions, I think a rise ball with a 10 mph loss in velocity will get hammered.

 

[SETPRO]

This is a follow-up to my previous post where I attempted to demonstrate a simulation of the Ueno throwing a "bullet spin" pitch.

I had incorrectly hypothesized that to do so they palm of the hand raked over the top of the ball. Again left over thinking from my overhand pitching investigations.

ArmWhip very efficiently pointed out the fallacy of my hypothesis. Which I was very thankful for him doing so doing.

This is late in coming but I corrected the Ueno simulation to more accurately reflect simulation of Ueno throwing bullet spin ball.

I will also say that I believe that IR action of the arm is an integral part of creating both bullet spin and bullet spin velocity.

Enjoy!

 

[RADcatcher]

My best student throws bullet spin. Never tried to fix it because you just adjust it to throw a curve and rise. I think it has helped her.

Use it & utilize different angle/axis/yaw of the rotation and keep growing!

 

[RADcatcher]

It is much easier to see the 6-12 rotation from the closer camera front angle. Watch the rotation close-up at point of release, then see how it becomes less obvious as the camera zooms out. At least that's what I'm seeing, maybe my mind can't process like others do.

closer camera front angle It is the little things that from a distance and or on odd TV angles are not noticed in the quickness of the moment.

Commentators still say goofy stuff, and they may still call out pitches wrong, but we may have been harder on them than we should have when technical limitations may be contributing.