Topspin Vs Bulletspin, Which is Faster?

[CoachFP]

Alan, I agree with you. But there are stubborn people who cling to the notion that a riseball is not rising, but is not falling as fast as other pitches. The spin on the ball will counter gravity's effect to a certain extent and the rise will be better than a non or less spinning upward arching pitch. The spin means a lot otherwise it is very easy to hit a high fastball.

 

[sluggers]

But there are stubborn people who cling to the notion that a riseball is not rising, but is not falling as fast as other pitches.

Definitions are important when discussing physics. We use the terms "rise" and "drop", but the terms require a reference point.

If we use "ground" as the reference point, then all softball pitches initially rise (all softball pitches are thrown with an initial upward trajectory) and then drop to the ground (assuming you don't have a catcher catch the ball).

The riseball is higher at the plate than a fastball (whether the fastball has bullet or 12-6 spin) if both were thrown with the same initial trajectory, same release point and same speed. So, one way to describe the action of a riseball is "the riseball falls less than a fastball over the distance from release to the plate".

Personally, I prefer to talk about the riseball with respect to its initial trajectory. The riseball never moves above its initial trajectory. However, by the time it has reached the plate, it has deflected less from the initial trajectory than a fastball.

The riseball is actually a lesson about "pitching" as opposed to physics. Pitching is more about the deception of the batter than the movement of the ball. The reason good batters miss a thrown pitch is because they expect to be at one location when the ball is at another. (Hitting a breaking pitch is easier than hitting a fastball *IF* the batter knows the pitch is a breaking pitch. The pitch is slower, and the "hitting zone" the ball will go through is smaller.)

 

[Doug Romrell]

No pitch, not even a riseball, moves above its initial trajectory.

DING, DING, DING!!!!

Wouldn't it be great if everyone understood THAT?

 

[ArmWhip]

Sorry, but it still doesn't add up. Why does a ball launched at 60 mph into a 10 mph headwind produce more Magnus force than a ball than a ball thrown at 70 mph? The ball velocity through the air is the same for both. The only way I could see this working out is if the Magnus forces of both pitches are equal but the 70 mph pitch is traveling faster over the ground so the total amount of break is less from start to finish.

 

[BoardMember]

AW, what Alan says make sense to me. And does explain why "into the wind" pitches move more then no wind, or down wind pitches.

The ball, when traveling from point A to point B at 60mph, experiences a 70mph magnus force while traveling AT 60mph into a 10mph wind........

Conversely, a ball traveling from point A to point B at 60mph down wind experiences a 50mph magnus force while traveling AT 60mph.........

Because point A to point B is a fixed distance, and the ball is traveling at a fixed velocity (60mph)........A 70mph Magnus force on that 60mph object will cause more movement between those two fixed points at that fixed velocity......

Bottom line is.........As many of have said in the past.......You can throw "through the break" when velocity force exceeds the magnus force generated........

I would also explain perceived late break if the velocity rate decreases faster then the spin rate......But that's another deal.........

 

[pobguy]

Sorry, but it still doesn't add up. Why does a ball launched at 60 mph into a 10 mph headwind produce more Magnus force than a ball than a ball thrown at 70 mph? The ball velocity through the air is the same for both. The only way I could see this working out is if the Magnus forces of both pitches are equal but the 70 mph pitch is traveling faster over the ground so the total amount of break is less from start to finish.

I didn't say that the Magnus force was greater in one case than another. In fact, I said the Magnus force was the same in each case (which is what you are saying). What is different is the time over which the Magnus force acts. It is longer for the 60 mph pitch than the 70 mph pitch, so the 60 mph pitch thrown into a 10 mph wind will break more than a 70 pitch with no wind. It is the ground speed that determines the flight time

 

[pobguy]

Now it's my turn to ask questions. I know what a "rise" is (a ball released with backspin); I know what a "drop" is (a ball released with topspin). How is a ball spinning that you simply classify as a "fastball". Is that the bulletspin pitch? In your experience, what does such a pitch do in terms of movement? What about a curve and a screw. Do those pitches have pure sidespin? What other pitches am I missing?

 

[JJsqueeze]

Now it's my turn to ask questions. I know what a "rise" is (a ball released with backspin); I know what a "drop" is (a ball released with topspin). How is a ball spinning that you simply classify as a "fastball". Is that the bulletspin pitch? In your experience, what does such a pitch do in terms of movement? What about a curve and a screw. Do those pitches have pure sidespin? What other pitches am I missing?

and we come full circle.....is the bullet spin the fastest pitch (hence a fastball)?

pro:

Magnus forces cancel out so it stays on it's trajectory ore than any other pitch, without any speed bleed away from the target

Con:

Hand position dictates that not all of the force is directly transferred at release since the hand is more on the side of the ball

Maybe the whole concept of a fastball is just a relative term for the fastest pitch that a given pitcher throws. Maybe the term fastball just needs to go away as a pitch since all pitches have some sort of spin?

I won't even bring up the fact that I have seen video of Boardmember throwing a bulletspin pitch that broke in on a LHB.

 

[Greenmonsters]

Now it's my turn to ask questions. I know what a "rise" is (a ball released with backspin); I know what a "drop" is (a ball released with topspin). How is a ball spinning that you simply classify as a "fastball". Is that the bulletspin pitch? In your experience, what does such a pitch do in terms of movement? What about a curve and a screw. Do those pitches have pure sidespin? What other pitches am I missing?

Dangerous ground! In FP, many 12U parents claim their DDs have 6 or 7 pitches (all, in reality, virtually indistinguishable). At the college/elite level, some claim that elite FP pitchers should never throw a FB. Some would say the rise and drop are FBs thrown w/ enhanced spin ie. FB variants. Those w/ BB roots would say that a rise is a 4-seam FB. Curve and screw are thrown trying to achieve a hztl spin axis. Many screws are poorly thrown and just an angled outside to inside pitch (RHP v. RHB) w/ no real break. Then there are the hybrid combos - crop (curve drop), scrise (screw rise), and ultimately, the crap (a rise ball that doesn't do anything different than the pitchers standard fastball and is prone to landing on the other side of the OF fence). Change - number of grips/releases. Knuckle ball - principally used as a change; rarely thrown w/ the lack of spin required to move unpredictably or "dance"

 

[Rick Pauly]

Alan
As you know, there are exceptions to every rule but here is kind of a generic statement from a college perspective.

A fastball typically has the same topspin as a dropball.....as a matter of fact there is remarkably little difference between the two if thrown with minimum release angle.

Again, this statement is relative to college.....I can't think of one pitcher who intentionally throws a bullet spin....I've seen it unintentionally (even from my own DD). Can't say I've witnessed a bullet spin pitch that had exceptional speed or movement which is probably why it isn't taught at the college level.

The curveball and screwball are often used pitches in college softball. I've done high speed video of several of each pitch......have never seen one that had a vertical axis (which is what I assume you would call pure sidespin)....always seems to be a slight tilt to the axis such that there is a dropping or rising effect on the ball....but there is enough side type spin to create movement.
Kind of like baseball....I am guessing there is not pure spin on a curve or a screwball there either.

Probably the other predominate pitch in college softball would be a change up....there are tons of varieties of change ups so the spin axis could vary all over the map.

More and more college pitchers are becoming aware of the benefit of an offspeed pitch....could be an offspeed curve, drop, rise, screw, etc.......probably a 50mph pitch if their top pitch speed is 63-65 mph. Very effective. Which leads me to a great question for you....

Have you seen or are aware of any studies attempting to determine what is the most difficult criteria for a baseball/softball hitter to read......speed, variation of speed, movement, location, etc. ??????

Now it's my turn to ask questions. I know what a "rise" is (a ball released with backspin); I know what a "drop" is (a ball released with topspin). How is a ball spinning that you simply classify as a "fastball". Is that the bulletspin pitch? In your experience, what does such a pitch do in terms of movement? What about a curve and a screw. Do those pitches have pure sidespin? What other pitches am I missing?