Topspin Vs Bulletspin, Which is Faster?

[rudy 001]

WOW - I read this whole thread (on pins and needles) - good stuff; but when I got to the end - there were 2 important issues left unresolved or never answered. THAT AIN'T RIGHT. 32 pages and a lot of back and forth and we need more.

1st question: HOW do you get a kid who has BULLET SPIN converted to RISEBALL or 6/12 spin?

2nd: what is the most difficult criteria for a hitter to read: speed, change of speed, movement or location - or maybe even a combination thereof?

This was a good thread; I hate to read the entire thing and then left hanging though.

 

[sluggers]

1st question: HOW do you get a kid who has BULLET SPIN converted to RISEBALL or 6/12 spin?

2nd: what is the most difficult criteria for a hitter to read: speed, change of speed, movement or location - or maybe even a combination thereof?

I'll let someone else answer the 1st question.

As to 2, the whole pitching/batting battle is about "when" the batter accurately predicts the pitch location at the plate. If the batter predicts the location too late or inaccurately, the batter misses or mishits the ball. If the batter accurately predicts the location, then the batter will solidly hit the ball.

The batter is not simply a swinging machine without a brain. A good batter is aware of the pitcher's tendencies, abilities, and game situation. The good batters adapt and learn quickly.

There is no one criteria, no one pitch, no one pitch sequence and so single game strategy that works.

Successful pitchers at the high levels vary speed, location and movement throughout the game. If a pitcher can't do all three of those things, they won't last a week pitching for any high level program, whether D1, D2, D3, NAIA, NJCAA, whatever.

 

[RubberBiscuit]

1st question: HOW do you get a kid who has BULLET SPIN converted to RISEBALL or 6/12 spin?

I am NOT one of the big-time PC's here but just a dad of a big-time bullet-spinner that developed into a big-time riseballer.

Not knowing what age and ability level you are referring to I will just make this first general comment:
For the RB DD's PC had her adopt a specific grip then run through new drills visualizing, then doing, the weight-back-shoot-under-the-ball-release method that produces the right spin.

I will be catching for DD tonight. If ya want she & I can retrace the more detailed evolutionary steps and report back if ya like..?

 

[pumpkinbear]

I will be catching for DD tonight. If ya want she & I can retrace the more detailed evolutionary steps and report back if ya like..?

Yeah, I'd like!

 

[riseball]

...1st question: HOW do you get a kid who has BULLET SPIN converted to RISEBALL or 6/12 spin?...

Fastpitch Softball Movement Pitches Part 1 - BIll Hillhouse - YouTube

Recommend watching the whole video or fast forward to 9:00 for the meat. I used the double-ball with my pitchers and it works very well.

 

[ArmWhip]

2nd: what is the most difficult criteria for a hitter to read: speed, change of speed, movement or location - or maybe even a combination thereof?

As far as I'm concerned a pitcher should learn location, change of speed, movement, in that order. As the level of play rises she needs to get better at all of them but the order remains the same.

 

[greg99]

I also have read this whole thread too. I do need to re-read some of the latest post from pobguy a few more times though. Anyways, My main question is should you change a "bullet spinner" to a top spin fastball?

RubberBiscut, does your DD still throw a bullet on her fastball? What about her Drop, does she trhow one?

Thanks

 

[RubberBiscuit]

Yeah, I'd like!

Sorry - I failed - I WILL get this detail and post it. Funny though,... After I caught DD last night, as I was coming back from putting the base & pitching mat away, DD was just finishing up giving a detailed riseball tutorial to a couple of the younger pitchers at the open-gym.

So it's fresh in her head - I just gotta corner her tonight.

 

[pobguy]

I am not sure where would be the best place to post this, but I'll try here. I have added a section onto my physics of baseball web site devoted to fastpitch softball: Fastpitch Softball. For now, I have just two links posted there, both related to analysis of pitches from the 2011 WCWS. One is to the slides I already mentioned earlier. The other is to a paper written by Caitlin Krebs. Caitlin is an undergraduate physics major at Drury University and a pitcher on the Drury team. She worked with me last summer as a research student as part of our Research Experience as an Undergraduate (REU) program at U. of Illinois. She wrote up a very nice paper on her analysis of the PITCHf/x data that we had, including identification (based on speed and movement) of each pitch. She wrote a very nice paper and I highly recommend it to you.

 

[RubberBiscuit]

I also have read this whole thread too. I do need to re-read some of the latest post from pobguy a few more times though. Anyways, My main question is should you change a "bullet spinner" to a top spin fastball?

RubberBiscut, does your DD still throw a bullet on her fastball? What about her Drop, does she trhow one?

Thanks

I think you leave the bullet fb and eventually develop a new drop. Subtle but meaningful difference here I think. IF she is a young good hard bullet-spinner I would not recommend throwing away what could be a great baseline for that elusive REAL riseball (not just the up-trajectory fastball).

Here is the pitch progression I would suggest to a young strong bullet-spinner:
1. FB
2. CU
3. Rise (have this be the first "extra" pitch that this girl gets into her head as I believe if she is meant to be a riseballer learning this pitch first will establish her notoriety/confidence to propell her further)
4. Drop - I think this could/should be the last pitch this pitcher needs to learn (being the up/down, ....challenge the swing plane the most, ...fanatic that I am)

My DD will throw a bullet-ish fb still. Ideally it's not being called by our coaches too much (hear that TB coaches!?!) but it is the same fb it was when she was 10yrs old. (For HS this bullet-spin fastball, all by itself, works really well still. I still contend, with all the drop-ball fastballers out there, a fastball that does not drop as much does take at least an at-bat to dial in - for the average high-schooler. Of course it does help that she is throwing 60's.....)

Now let me be clear - sometimes just before mastering the riseball - there may be a time where your DD might be on a 14U TB-A team and she might lay a bullet-spin fb right out there over the middle of the plate - and you might see the longest home-run you have ever seen off a pitch (versus the drop spin pitchers) - but stay the course. A REAL riseball is a thing to behold and I believe is the most challenging pitch to hit at the highest levels.