runner doesn't tag up but you can't tag her out?

[Momo'sDad]

I understand the above rule as stated if time has been called.

1. But if 3b caught the ball and simply tagged third base before runner returned or time was called, would the runner not be out? Looks like it would be an automatic call by the BU and no appeal necessary. If a line drive is hit to the 1st baseman and runner breaks on the crack of the bat and 1st baseman catches ball and touches first base with ball in her possession, the base runner is out. No appeal necessary. Looks to me to be the same thing.

Both of those plays are examples of live ball appeals.

2. If 3b catches ball and throws home and catcher tags runner before she reaches home plate, would she not be out as a normal play or even if she did leave early and you would not need to appeal (just as Comp stated above)? Unless I am reading the above rule out of context, it is saying the runner is "dead" and cannot be tagged.

The ball is live, so when the runner is tagged between bases by a fielder in possession of the ball, the runner is out.

3. If in the above situation, the runner touches home plate before being tagged by the catcher. After being tagged, would the runner still not be out because she has touched or is touching the base illegally and has been properly tagged by the catcher?

If the runner has already reached home plate, then a defensive player must make the appeal PRIOR to the next pitch. It can be verbalized, or a simple throw over to 3B will be an indication to many umps that leaving early is being appealed.

Runner is on first base and takes lead once ball leaves pitchers hand. Fly ball and RF catches ball and throws to 2nd base were runner is standing and 2b tags runner. Is she not called out by the BU because she is on the base illegally or does 2nd baseman have to wait to tag her when she attempts to return to first, throw to first base, or wait for time and appeal for leaving early?

I suggest making the throw to 1B. Again, as above, a defensive player must make the appeal. It's a live ball appeal. In ASA, there's no requirement for requesting a time out before an appeal is made, which is something a lot of people don't realize.

How did I do, Comp?

 

[Comp]

1. But if 3b caught the ball and simply tagged third base before runner returned or time was called, would the runner not be out? Looks like it would be an automatic call by the BU and no appeal necessary. If a line drive is hit to the 1st baseman and runner breaks on the crack of the bat and 1st baseman catches ball and touches first base with ball in her possession, the base runner is out. No appeal necessary. Looks to me to be the same thing.

I helped create some of the confusion, hopefully I can help clear it up. Any play made on a runner who has left a base early on a caught fly ball is actually an appeal play. There are live ball appeals and dead ball appeals, when a runner has obviously left early and the throw comes the the base that is a live ball appeal. And yes, the runner would be out.

2. If 3b catches ball and throws home and catcher tags runner before she reaches home plate, would she not be out as a normal play or even if she did leave early and you would not need to appeal (just as Comp stated above)? Unless I am reading the above rule out of context, it is saying the runner is "dead" and cannot be tagged.

Any time a runner is off base in a live ball situation and is tagged they would be out. Being off base early on a caught fly ball does not make the runner "dead".

3. If in the above situation, the runner touches home plate before being tagged by the catcher. After being tagged, would the runner still not be out because she has touched or is touching the base illegally and has been properly tagged by the catcher? Runner is on first base and takes lead once ball leaves pitchers hand. Fly ball and RF catches ball and throws to 2nd base were runner is standing and 2b tags runner. Is she not called out by the BU because she is on the base illegally or does 2nd baseman have to wait to tag her when she attempts to return to first, throw to first base, or wait for time and appeal for leaving early?

If the umpire believes the throw home and the tag after the runner has scored to be a live ball appeal, then yes the runner would be called out. If it is not obvious this was the case, possibly obvious confusion on the defense's part or maybe the defense thought the runner hadnt touched home plate etc, then the defense would need to appeal to the umpire why they were tagging the runner. In your situation you have just posted, the runner is not illegally on 2nd base. If it is obvious the defense is making a live ball appeal, then yes the runner would be called out for not tagging up after the catch. However, if it is not obvious this is a live ball appeal, but was instead a play by the defense to make a play on a runner advancing to 2nd base then the umpire should not call the runner out for being tagged while standing on the base. The defense would then need to tell the umpire the reason for the tag was the runner leaving 1st base early.

 

[Comp]

How did I do, Comp?

Beat me to it.

 

[Ajaywill]

But if 3b caught the ball and simply tagged third base before runner returned or time was called, would the runner not be out? Looks like it would be an automatic call by the BU and no appeal necessary. If a line drive is hit to the 1st baseman and runner breaks on the crack of the bat and 1st baseman catches ball and touches first base with ball in her possession, the base runner is out. No appeal necessary.

These are both examples of a live ball appeal. It is not necessary for the defensive player to explicitly state " I am touching the base because I believe that the runner left the base prior to the fly ball first being touched". The defense just needs to somehow make the umpire aware that they are appealing the runner leaving the base early.

If a fly ball is caught and all of the fielders are screaming to throw the ball to first (or whereever) that is enough of an indication that they are requesting an appeal.

 

[BretMan]

1. But if 3b caught the ball and simply tagged third base before runner returned or time was called, would the runner not be out? Looks like it would be an automatic call by the BU and no appeal necessary. If a line drive is hit to the 1st baseman and runner breaks on the crack of the bat and 1st baseman catches ball and touches first base with ball in her possession, the base runner is out. No appeal necessary...

Ah, but the touching of the base while holding the ball IS an appeal! Remember, there are live ball appeals and there are dead ball appeals. This is an example of a live ball appeal.

The other thing to keep in mind is that any appeal must be, by it's nature, what is commonly refered to as an "unmistakable appeal". That is, it needs to be obvious what is being appealed on which runner and that the defense has recognized the rule violation and is willfully acting upon it.

In the case of the line drive to first base (or, third base for that matter) if the runner obviously left early and the fielder purposely tags the base, the appeal is pretty unmistakable. It's obvious what the fielder is doing and which runner is being appealled. An umpire would rule on this appeal right away, without needing the fielder to verbally state her intent.

2. If 3b catches ball and throws home and catcher tags runner before she reaches home plate, would she not be out as a normal play or even if she did leave early and you would not need to appeal (just as Comp stated above)? Unless I am reading the above rule out of context, it is saying the runner is "dead" and cannot be tagged.

Yes, if this runner is tagged before reaching home she would be out- same as any other runner tagged while off a base during a live ball.

You're taking one rule out of the rule book, the rule about appeals for leaving early on a catch, and taking it out of context. This one single rule doesn't override or negate the rule that says any runner is out when tagged with the ball while not in contact with a base.

3. If in the above situation, the runner touches home plate before being tagged by the catcher. After being tagged, would the runner still not be out because she has touched or is touching the base illegally and has been properly tagged by the catcher? Runner is on first base and takes lead once ball leaves pitchers hand. Fly ball and RF catches ball and throws to 2nd base were runner is standing and 2b tags runner. Is she not called out by the BU because she is on the base illegally or does 2nd baseman have to wait to tag her when she attempts to return to first, throw to first base, or wait for time and appeal for leaving early?

Remembering the "unmistakable appeal" thing from part one...

Once the runner has crossed the plate, she may be tagged as part of a live ball appeal for leaving early on the catch. But the fielder making the tag needs to make it clear to the umpire what exactly is being appealed. Was the tag just a belated effort to put out the runner before she reached the plate? Did the catcher maybe think that the runner missed the plate? Is it obvious that whatever the catcher is doing is a purposeful recognition that the runner did indeed leave third base too soon and the defense is appealing it?

To make this live ball appeal unmistakable, the fielder needs to state her reason for the tag. Simply saying to the umpire, "She left base too early", or words to that effect, would make this appeal unmistakable and the out would then be granted.

 

[tghorley]

Thanks Momo'sDad, Comp and BretMan. I thought I understood until obbay posted the rule and now I understand that pertains to dead ball situations.

The thing I am taking out of this is that a lot of obvious live appeal plays are called by the umpires with no verbalization necessary. But is some live ball cases when it is not obvious, you need to declare your appeal before time is called or wait til time is called and then make the declaration.

So, I am going to have to teach my DGD every time there is a close play at home (shes a catcher) and the runner scores to make sure she tags the runner and to make an appeal after action has stopped and before time is called, that the runner left early or missed third base. Hey, you never know!!! If her appeal is upheld, that would bring up some interesting conversation for everybody. It would not be as much fun if she waited til after time is called. Of course some of the umpires we have had lately, they would not know it is a live ball appeal.

I have had my coffee so now I can't wait til beer-thirty.

 

[obbay]

Thanks bret- now i understand why the ump did it, he wasn't sure if the defense was aware of the runner leaving early and that they may have been trying to get her out at home. If she beat the throw to the plate he wasn't going to call her safe because he knows she left early, but without the defense saying so, he doesn't know what they were trying to do.

3Bman was inexperienced and had an easy play at 3rd, but she panicked and threw home.

 

[Gbucz]

Saw this argued for a triple play. Girls on second and third, no outs, lefty came up. Lefty went to slap hit a riser and fouled it toward the crashing third baseman who caught it then tagged the girl leaving third half way down the line. She then threw back to third where the short stop tagged the girl standing on the base. Ump called the fly and first tag outs but not the second. Coach made a stink and had the short stop run back to second with the ball and touch the base. BU then called the girl out for leaving early. BU claimed he needed to see the appeal to second before calling the out. We all thought since the girl illegally obtained third that she was out by the tag regardless of her presence on the base. The BU was confident on his understanding and we got the third out so nobody was questioning it just very confused.

We now have our girls always appeal 'left early' plays back to the base even if we tagged the runner.

 

[Bama Slamer]

Infield fly batter is out runners advance at their on risk.

 

[Comp]

Infield fly batter is out runners advance at their on risk.

Runners on 2nd and 3rd. There was no infield fly rule, besides the post says it was in foul territory, again, would not be an IFF.

As for the post, the runner was not "illegally" standing on 3rd base. Did your fielder appeal to the umpire the runner not having tagged up at 2nd when she tagged her standing on 3rd? As has already been discussed, the umpire does not know if you are making a play on an advancing runner or not, so with the player standing on 3rd they would not be out if simply tagged for no reason.