rollover drop - four seam vs two seam grip

[Mike]

It is after this that the hand/wrist perform the rollover action

yep. Follow through for a rollover drop after the ball has peeled off of the fingertips

they are two different pitches in the sense that the release point and angle of may be different, some mechanics might be different, the intent might be different, the follow through is different...IMO semantics, the ball still peels off the fingertips at release, right?

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Yes ... the ball still peels off the fingers at release and results in the same direction of spin.

I scratch my head when a pitcher with a basic 'fastball' asks me what they should work on next and they tell me that they were thinking of working on a dropball. Hello? Anyone home? You already have a dropball … just learn to locate it at the catcher’s knees … then add a riseball … which is basically an anti-dropball.

 

[sluggers]

Really, after the fingers peel off the ball the only difference I see is the follow through.....I am a loser and have no video.

That is exactly the difference between the two pitches. The follow through indicates the direction the hand and wrist are moving at release. In the peel, the hand moves linearly upward at release. On a rollover, the hand continues to rotate.

Think about slingshots. There are two kinds of slingshots--the modern "pull the rock backwards" kind and the ancient "spin the sling over your head" "David and Goliath" kind. With both kinds of slings, when the rock is released, it goes in a straight line toward the target. However, to say that the two are the same doesn't make any sense.

With the rollover versus the peel, this almost exactly the difference between the two types of top-spin forehands in tennis. In the conventional forehand, the racquet head moves from down to up in primarily a linear motion. In the modern forehand, the racquet head is rotated rapidly across the front of the body at contact. In both cases, the instantaneous motion of the racquet head is up at impact with the ball. However, the amount of spin put on the ball by the modern forehand is significantly more than the conventional method.

The point of my DD's pictures was to help people understand the mechanics behind throwing the rollover and the peel. There are different mechanics involved.

Obviously, the rollover and the peel have the same end result--the ball has enhanced 12-6 spin. But, to say, "the peel and the rollover are identical" is wrong.

FFS. are you saying a drop ball is just a fastball? They aren't.

 

[lhowser]

That Slingshot illustration was pretty clever!

 

[lhowser]

FFS. are you saying a drop ball is just a fastball? They aren't.

On the thread drop ball internal rotation i said:

Regarding this clip and the discussion of the drop.

IF: A fastball has more or less 12-6 spin

AND: A drop ball has more or less 12-6 spin

THEN: In order for the ball to drop it would have to be thrown with either significantly more RPM's or with less velocity...Yes?

OR: From a different angle (plane) with angle and reduced velocity creating the "drop".

And Bill Hillhouse then said this:

didn't say more RPM's was bad. But this post makes it sound like something extra is necessary to increase the RPM's. I've never made a secret of saying that a "fastball" is a joke in softball pitching. It is. Why the hell would anyone want to throw a straight pitch on purpose? Anyway, if someone has 6/12 rotation on their "fastball" then they can make the ball go down by changing the trajectory of the release point. It's not an extra movement or additional thing that creates more RPM's. Basically the "fastball" and drop are identical, with different release points. A "fastball" is simply let go later and hangs in the zone, reaching the catcher before it has time to go down due to the angle of trajectory. It really doesn't get more simple than that. With that said, to think the ball needs to be released LATER than the "fastball" as was suggested is the opposite. The later the ball is released, the higher the trajectory. Anyone with even moderate velocity will have the ball reach the catcher BEFORE it even has a chance to go down. I also don't think velocity needs to change, let alone decrease. For sure, a pitcher can "overthrow" a pitch and that makes it flat. But assuming the timing is set and working on that particular day, the velocity should be no different than what a "fastball" is. To think the velocity needs to decrease would imply that something extra is happening in the release which is different to that of a "fastball". I think it's just a case of release point, assuming the rotation is correct. Most dads, catchers, and coaches who catch for pitchers often say they notice their "fastball" has a drop to it sometimes. This is because they throw a peel drop and don't even realize it most of the time. They simply let the ball go sooner. The 6/12 rotation and the fact it didn't have to go up (high release trajectory) before it can break down makes the ball fall off the table. A shorter stride is not necessary... that can subtract power and speed, which we want when throwing pitches! When people tell you to step short, they are trying to get the pitcher to change the release point. I maintain the pitcher can change the release by letting the ball go sooner... not needing to step short and sacrifice power for it to happen!!

 

[sluggers]

Here are the Revfire stats: http://www.revfire.com/files/2010_NFCA_Showcase_RevFire_Spin_Performance.pdf

The RevFire stats show that some girls are throwing drops with RPS in excess of 25 RPS. However, most girls are throwing drop balls with less than 17RPS or less. Is anyone contending that a 17RPS drop is the same as a 25RPS drop?

If you admit that a 25RPS drop is better than a 17RPS drop, then we should be trying to figure out "Why can Suzy throw a 25RPS drop and Sally is throwing an 18RPS drop?"

Some girls are getting almost 50% more break on the drop than others. And the *MAJORITY* of girls are throwing 17RPS drops.

The RevFire stats suggest that some people (pitching instructors?) aren't teaching kids how to throw drop balls at all.

Everyone saying, "Oh, its easy to teach a drop. Anyone can learn to throw it." Then, when you look at the RevFire stats, it is pretty clear that the statement is wrong.

As to Bill's statement, Bill is a little touchy about paraphrasing what he said, so I won't. Generally, throwing an effective drop (or any effective breaking pitch) is a combination of location, speed, release angle and spin.

If a pitcher with an killer rise, then she really doesn't need a killer drop. A pitcher with a killer rise just needs something with a little bit of down movement. On the other hand, if a pitcher is going to rely on a drop ball, she had better be able to make that thing really move or she will be toast.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Sluggers ... first off, your video of your daughter throwing a "rollover" clearly indicated that she was indeed "peeling" the ball. Second, your read of the rev-fire data is semi-dangerous depending on how it is interpreted. You speak of drop spin pitches coming in at the upper end of the data-base ... outside of the norm ... and you sort of suggested this as a target to go after. At the same time, the logic could extend equally to a riseball. But I've seen people do as you suggest ... and place an overemphasis on spin rate ... and in the process lose significant speed. It's a questionable objective in my opinion to be targeting the upper extreme of a database ... especially a database that is incomplete in terms of not including 'speed' along with 'spin rate'.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

That Slingshot illustration was pretty clever!

'Centrifugal force' versus 'linear' ... different from 'peel' versus 'peel' IMO.

 

[sluggers]

Again, FFS, you aren't defining "peel". You are saying, basically, "It is a peel because I say it is." Again, you provide no definition for "peel". You have no video showing "peel".

If you are saying, "The peel is any spin applied to the ball by the fingers", then "peel" would also include curves, screws, rises and fastballs.

The only definition of "peel" that makes sense is the hand being pulled linearly upward at release. Again, there are lots and lots of videos that indicate that this is what people mean by "peel".

On a rollover, the hand is not pulled linearly upward at release. The hand is rotated to impart spin on the ball, just like advanced tennis players do when hitting a modern top spin forehand or table tennis players do when hitting a top spin forehand.

Link to top spin ping pong Note the rotation of the paddle.

As to the RevFire data-- Are we supposed to ignore the objective data we do have for conjectures and suppositions?

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Sluggers … the action that your daughter applied to spin the ball in the above “rollover drop” is the same peeling action used to spin the ball in the “peel drop”. I know the brain may think differently when performing the action … but the video is fairly clear IMO.

Regarding the rev-fire data ... if you truly believe that data, then understand the implication of recommending that people target the extreme limits of a Guassian-like distribution. Is that really a smart goal? It wasn't such a great goal for some people that I've seen target it ... but perhaps they were simply unlucky. Don't get me wrong ... spin is important ... but you seem to suggest going after the extreme limits of a Guassian distribution, and I'm questioning if that truly is a smart goal.