FiveFrameSwing
Banned
Some refer to it as an off-speed peel.
rollover drop - four seam vs two seam grip
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FFS, you are wrong. Now it is your turn...post a video of the hand of a pitcher throwing a peel drop and then let's compare the two.
Peel drop: extra spin is added to the ball by flipping the fingers in a vertical plane.
This is from Gerald Warner's website about the peel: "Precisely at the release of the ball, quickly pull backwards (and slightly up) with your fingertips to create a fast forward spin on the ball as it leaves your hand. This "peeling" (or "pulling the rug out from under") the ball is similar to the magician's trick of pulling the tablecloth out from under plates and glasses."
That is not *ANYTHING* like the motion my DD uses. It is obvious to anyone that her palm has rotated 90 degree from facing the catcher to facing the her leg in the space of *ONE* frame...or roughly 3 hundredths of a second.
The extra spin put on the ball comes from rotating the fingers around an axis parallel to the path of the ball It is a screwing action of the right hand. It is more like my DD is spinning a top, where the top is a softball.
This similar to the different ways to put top spin on a tennis forehand. There is the "conventional" way of keeping the racquet low at impact and then moving it up to a higher position. Then, there is the way pros put top spin on the ball by rapidly rotating the racket head at impact.
[video]http://youtu.be/pmrO4LQmVAY[/video]
(Yes, "rollover" is not accurate. I didn't name the pitch.)
You guys call a 61MPH drop ball "offspeed"? Wow...the BS really is getting deep.
Peel drop: extra spin is added to the ball by flipping the fingers in a vertical plane.
This is from Gerald Warner's website about the peel: "Precisely at the release of the ball, quickly pull backwards (and slightly up) with your fingertips to create a fast forward spin on the ball as it leaves your hand. This "peeling" (or "pulling the rug out from under") the ball is similar to the magician's trick of pulling the tablecloth out from under plates and glasses."
That is not *ANYTHING* like the motion my DD uses. It is obvious to anyone that her palm has rotated 90 degree from facing the catcher to facing the her leg in the space of *ONE* frame...or roughly 3 hundredths of a second.
The extra spin put on the ball comes from rotating the fingers around an axis parallel to the path of the ball It is a screwing action of the right hand. It is more like my DD is spinning a top, where the top is a softball.
This similar to the different ways to put top spin on a tennis forehand. There is the "conventional" way of keeping the racquet low at impact and then moving it up to a higher position. Then, there is the way pros put top spin on the ball by rapidly rotating the racket head at impact.
[video]http://youtu.be/pmrO4LQmVAY[/video]
(Yes, "rollover" is not accurate. I didn't name the pitch.)
You guys call a 61MPH drop ball "offspeed"? Wow...the BS really is getting deep.
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FiveFrameSwing
Banned
Wrong? Sort of reminds me of Hal's magical late upward breaking riseball. He just can't seem to repeat the magic when the camera is turned on.
Seriously though Sluggers ... IMO you still haven't shown a video, or series of frames, in which a "roll-over drop" is anything but a "peel drop".
Seriously though Sluggers ... IMO you still haven't shown a video, or series of frames, in which a "roll-over drop" is anything but a "peel drop".
- Jul 26, 2010
- 3,553
- 0
Rollover drop: "peeling" the ball towards the catcher to impart 6-12 spin with the edges of the fingers. Fingers are generally pointed towards third base (RHP).
Peel drop: "peeling" the ball towards the catcher to impart 6-12 spin with the tips of the fingers. Fingers are pointed towards the catcher.
-W
Peel drop: "peeling" the ball towards the catcher to impart 6-12 spin with the tips of the fingers. Fingers are pointed towards the catcher.
-W
Could the angle of the right shoulder be another difference in the two pitches for a RHP? It seems that pitchers who throw the "roll-over" drop ball really drive their back shoulder forward making the angle of release a little different than the pitcher who pitches the peel drop.
Hillhouse says the peel drop is essentially the same as the fastball mechanics the only difference is the ball is released a fraction sooner. However, there has to be more going on otherwise, all things being equal, a peel drop would only be a fastball low in the strike zone(because it's released sooner). It would be great to hook BH up to those motion capture cameras and compare and contrast his mechanics for the fastball and peel drop
Hillhouse says the peel drop is essentially the same as the fastball mechanics the only difference is the ball is released a fraction sooner. However, there has to be more going on otherwise, all things being equal, a peel drop would only be a fastball low in the strike zone(because it's released sooner). It would be great to hook BH up to those motion capture cameras and compare and contrast his mechanics for the fastball and peel drop
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
That about sums it up. Don't have to make it any more complicated than that.
- May 7, 2008
- 174
- 18
OK wow, started a debate fit for politics. First disclaimer, i am no HIllhouse or a former DI player but I do practice all the pitches to my very mediocre ability to help teach them. When i throw a peel (ala Hillhouse) I use a four seam fast ball grip and release early and curl my fingers hard to get as much spin as I can. When i do it right the old ball drops! When I do a rolloverI use a two finger grip on the horseshoe seams because I can get my hand pronated outwards and rotate it inward pushing with the fingers on those seams which best I can tell is what sluggers pics are. now this spin is 6/12 but two seam which yea i know moves less air but i can spin it! (same as described by starsnuffer)
Now if I hold a four seam grip and try to rollover to get a 6/12 spin TO ME there are no seam to work my fingers to spin with because my fingers have are aligned on the rotation axis. The only way to push on a seam to get spin seems to be come over and across - a drop curve, not a bad pitch but mighty tough to throw inside.
This was the origin of my original question becasue as if this player wants to throw an inside and outside drop the choices I understand are (1) throw a peel ala hillhouse (2) throw a rollover with horseshoe grip BOTH are a change from what her old coach had her doing for 6 months. or (3) find a way to help her with finding a way to help her with what the old coach was insisting on it
hate to have the poor kids caught in one coach said the other said if it s a matter of preference. so first lesson i dodged the issue and worked on change up.
So when she comes back I will get to the meat of the matter and have her throw whatever she was taught and see if it actually does anything...lol and go from there
so thanks.
Now if I hold a four seam grip and try to rollover to get a 6/12 spin TO ME there are no seam to work my fingers to spin with because my fingers have are aligned on the rotation axis. The only way to push on a seam to get spin seems to be come over and across - a drop curve, not a bad pitch but mighty tough to throw inside.
This was the origin of my original question becasue as if this player wants to throw an inside and outside drop the choices I understand are (1) throw a peel ala hillhouse (2) throw a rollover with horseshoe grip BOTH are a change from what her old coach had her doing for 6 months. or (3) find a way to help her with finding a way to help her with what the old coach was insisting on it
hate to have the poor kids caught in one coach said the other said if it s a matter of preference. so first lesson i dodged the issue and worked on change up.
So when she comes back I will get to the meat of the matter and have her throw whatever she was taught and see if it actually does anything...lol and go from there
so thanks.
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What FFS and SS do is define "peel" the way it suits them. Under your defintion (hand facing the plate), everything is a peel drop---curves, screws and fastballs all have the hand facing the plate at release.
(1) How do you define a peel drop? What is the actual mechanics that imparts spin on the ball?
(2) How do you teach a peel drop?
The question is not that the hand is facing the catcher at the release. The question is in what direction are the fingers moving throughout release. Peel drop: the fingers are moving linearly Rollover: fingers are moving counterclockwise
FFS and SS fail to address the points I made. They want to say, "Oh, its a peel drop"--but, if it isn't taught the same way and doesn't use the same mechanics at release, then the two aren't the same pitch.
Address the issues, and the questions.
Where are your videos? I've got the guts to post them and take the heat. Where are yours?
Anyway...here is a video of girls throwing a "peel drop":
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/xI9p5LjvfQI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Are you seriously saying that the mechanics shown in this video are the same mechanics my DD uses?
(1) How do you define a peel drop? What is the actual mechanics that imparts spin on the ball?
(2) How do you teach a peel drop?
The question is not that the hand is facing the catcher at the release. The question is in what direction are the fingers moving throughout release. Peel drop: the fingers are moving linearly Rollover: fingers are moving counterclockwise
FFS and SS fail to address the points I made. They want to say, "Oh, its a peel drop"--but, if it isn't taught the same way and doesn't use the same mechanics at release, then the two aren't the same pitch.
Address the issues, and the questions.
Where are your videos? I've got the guts to post them and take the heat. Where are yours?
Anyway...here is a video of girls throwing a "peel drop":
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/xI9p5LjvfQI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Are you seriously saying that the mechanics shown in this video are the same mechanics my DD uses?
This is staring to sound like the "does the elbow get ahead of the hands" debate in the hitting forum.
IMO your dealing with semantics, both of those include peeling up on the seams, just the release point and follow throughs are different. Maybe the pitches act different because of trajectory....release point.
Sluggers daughters first frame shows her palm facing the catcher and the ball starting to peel off. FFS can you freeze a frame at that same point of someone throwing a peel drop?
Really, after the fingers peel off the ball the only difference I see is the follow through.....I am a loser and have no video.
IMO your dealing with semantics, both of those include peeling up on the seams, just the release point and follow throughs are different. Maybe the pitches act different because of trajectory....release point.
Sluggers daughters first frame shows her palm facing the catcher and the ball starting to peel off. FFS can you freeze a frame at that same point of someone throwing a peel drop?
Really, after the fingers peel off the ball the only difference I see is the follow through.....I am a loser and have no video.
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
Mike ... In the frames that Sluggers provided, the fingers are folded into the hand in the frame immediately after release. It is after this that the hand/wrist perform the rollover action. I'll see if I can put together some peel drop videos and do a comparison ... if someone will provide a similar frame-rate of each drop then I'll sync them up.
