Bad pitching

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Jun 6, 2016
2,706
113
Chicago
My tl:dr point of all this is: The pitcher did something good, the batter did something bad, and it's a weird quirk that would allow the batter to reach in that situation, including the randomness of playing surfaces, backstop distance and bounciness, etc. We should reward the greater athletic feat.

You typed a lot when you clearly don't get it.

You just want to change something because you don't like it, but you haven't made a single valid argument for why it logically should not exist. I'm not arguing that I like it. I'm arguing that the rule is consistent with the rest of the rules and they ought to remain consistent.

It's not a "weird quirk." That's how I know you don't get it. The pitcher making the batter swing and miss is only completing half the job! The catcher cleanly receiving the ball is the second half. You must do both. That's what's consistent with the entire rest of the game. Deviating to appease your sensibilities is what breaks the game.

Btw, the Infield Fly Rule exists to protect the offense, not help the defense. It's not breaking any guideline because of the reason it exists.
 
Jan 22, 2011
1,577
113
Lobby whatever sanction your DD's 10u team plays in to go back to the pre-2007 ASA Softball days when DTS didn't apply. By 12u most pitchers, catchers, and 1B skills are good enough that DTS's not being an out is rare. I would be happy if DTS was dropped from the game, but don't feel strongly enough about it to advocate removing it for 12u and above.

When I started coaching in 2005, ASA Softball had rules for 10u that were different from 12u and above. No uncaught 3rd strike, no infield fly, no stealing home, no continuation on walks, and can only steal one base per pitch. I don't remember what USSSA rules were, but NSA had uncaught 3rd strike. I agree with what @Ken Krause wrote in this December 2006 blog post when USA Softball removed those restrictions from 10u for the 2007 season. https://fastpitchlane.softballsuccess.com/2006/12/09/changes-to-asa-rules-at-10u/

The more competitive parents and coaches worried their daughters would be adversely affected in 12u because they didn't learn how to play these rules in 10u, so lobbied ASA to remove the age appropriate rules.

Dave Weaver, the founder of The New England Catching Camp, put it well. Most 10u catchers' skills aren't developed enough to catch the unpredictableness of their pitchers at times, and having UTS and open plate is age-inappropriate for the skill level of 10u players. It just discourages players from wanting to be catchers.

I saw a 10u fallball game of players mostly moving up from 8u that was a no hitter- the final score was something like 17-15. A game later that fall I had a coach with extremely good sportsmanship give me two outs by leaving a runner at 1st and having his players swing at anything possibly hittable to give me DTS 1st occupied outs, to give my team another at bat before we were mercy ruled.
 
Last edited:
Jun 18, 2023
277
43
It certainly is a relic in some respects. The rule comes from a time when the hitter only got 3 swings to hit the ball and the ball was in play after the 3rd swing whether the hitter made contact or not.

You typed a lot when you clearly don't get it.

You just want to change something because you don't like it, but you haven't made a single valid argument for why it logically should not exist. I'm not arguing that I like it. I'm arguing that the rule is consistent with the rest of the rules and they ought to remain consistent.

I made a lot of clear arguments, you just don't agree.

Read what JayW said above. The reason. The ENTIRE reason, it's not an out is because catching it used to be an out the same way a line drive caught by the Third Baseman was an out. (you used to be able to catch those on a bounce too I believe) If you line out to third, but the fielder drops it, you're allowed to run to first as the batter. It's EXACTLY the same. Exactly.

So when we got rid of that "ball in play after the third attempt to strike at the ball" rule, the dropped third strike should've gone with it. The pitcher-catcher matchup has evolved past that. The entire purpose of the interaction is different.

It's existence adds nothing but randomness and quirkiness and not in a good way.
 
May 13, 2023
1,403
113
California High Desert
.
Screenshot_20240123-053544_Chrome.jpg
How do you know the pitcher did something good?
Simply cannot know every pitch.
The pitcher~ throws a pitch.
Good/bad locations, Both happen.

it's not a weird Quirk
it's called errors.
(*not completing the play, that seems to be the part you're not wanting to acknowledge)

That's correct the entire field is part of the game. It's surface. It's distances.
The entirety of it is part of the game.
*For both teams random field occurrences are part of the game!

Reward the greater athletic feat.
➡️Would not be an athletic feat until it is completed. That is the critical Factor to reward.
➡️Reward the play being completed!
*The reward would be either
the defense (pitcher included) being able to finish the play.
Or the batter being rewarded because the defense couldn't.

These factors matters ⬇️
The ball is live from when the ball leaves the pitchers hand. Regardless if it touches the bat. Because of that...
The pitcher has a responsibility of keeping the ball in a manageable range just like throws from other defensive players. Just like other defensive players if they have an errant throw that is unmanageable it is really an error. (even though for the pitcher they just call it wild, it is still an error.)
Then, to get an out, the defense including the catcher has a responsibility of controlling the ball.
 
Last edited:
Oct 14, 2019
876
93
You typed a lot when you clearly don't get it.

You just want to change something because you don't like it, but you haven't made a single valid argument for why it logically should not exist. I'm not arguing that I like it. I'm arguing that the rule is consistent with the rest of the rules and they ought to remain consistent.

It's not a "weird quirk." That's how I know you don't get it. The pitcher making the batter swing and miss is only completing half the job! The catcher cleanly receiving the ball is the second half. You must do both. That's what's consistent with the entire rest of the game. Deviating to appease your sensibilities is what breaks the game.

Btw, the Infield Fly Rule exists to protect the offense, not help the defense. It's not breaking any guideline because of the reason it exists.
It’s not consiste
.
View attachment 29299
How do you know the pitcher did something good?
Simply cannot know every pitch.
The pitcher~ throws a pitch.
Good/bad locations, Both happen.

it's not a weird Quirk
it's called errors.
( that seems to be the part you're not wanting to acknowledge)

That's correct the entire field is part of the game. It's surface. It's distances.
The entirety of it is part of the game.
*For both teams random field occurrences are part of the game!

Reward the greater athletic feat.
➡️Would not be an athletic feat until it is completed. That is the critical Factor to reward.
➡️Reward the play being completed!
*The reward would be either
the defense (pitcher included) being able to finish the play.
Or the batter being rewarded because the defense couldn't.

These factors matters ⬇️
The ball is live from the
Once the ball leaves the pitchers hand it is live. Regardless if it touches the bat. Because of that...
The pitcher has a responsibility of keeping the ball in a manageable range just like throws from other defensive players. Just like other defensive players if they have an errant throw that is unmanageable it is really an error. (even though for the pitcher they just call it wild, it is still an error.)
Then, to get an out, the defense including the catcher has a responsibility of controlling the ball.






View attachment 29301
Ceetar got a response?
Interested why you comment a pitcher doesn't need their defense?
A dropped third strike is not an error. Even if the catcher blocks the ball and gains possession, it’s still a dropped third strike if it hits the ground. Do you know why this rule came to be?
 
May 13, 2023
1,403
113
California High Desert
A dropped third strike is not an error. Even if the catcher blocks the ball and gains possession, it’s still a dropped third strike if it hits the ground.
Yep understand the rule book definition.
( of which previously commented the word *dropped third strike is not the most accurate verbiage for what could be happening)

That verbage is to its own rule definition and the game still includes the occurrences of wild throws, wild pitches and dropping the ball creating errors.

Enjoyed the thorough chat everybody have a great day!
 
Last edited:
Jan 25, 2022
844
93
I think it's insane that there's a dropped third strike rule in MLB, never mind middle-low levels of softball.

June 7th 1995. Sophomore history class. I had to go look up the exact date but the memory itself is semi-clear. It was the last, or next to last day of school. I was filled with optimism for a fun-filled summer of watching re-runs of Chips and Night Rider and running the vacuum or folding clothes at my mom's behest. I still had a full head of hair and some Jason Priestly sideburns and would start my first ever job at McDonald's a couple months later for the princely sum of $4.15/hour, at least a quarter of which went back to eating McDonald's food.

Mr Clark rummages in his closet and rolls out the A.V. cart with the 24" TV with the strap across the top and wood grain side panels. Turns on a Braves game that none of us were interested in watching, and due to DTS Mark Wohlers strikes out 4 in the same inning. It only happens a few times a season, and I've only watched professional baseball about 10 times in my life, most of which were McGwire and Sosa duking it out in 1998.

There was almost no point to this story, other than the memory you jogged of one of the more forgettable summers of my life.
 
Oct 4, 2018
4,545
113
Sorry I should have been more clear. The other teams pitcher was decent, it was the pitcher that my daughter was catching that was all over the place. I'm just worried that she will get frustrated that all the t-drills, time working on her secondary position and throws to second are wasted because she spends her time scrambling to get ball at the backstop.

Yeah, I couldn't tell if your DD was the pitcher, catcher or batter.

Catcher? No worries. Do your best, work on blocking. Have fun. Chip in your allowance money to their pitching lessons.
 
May 15, 2008
1,871
113
Cape Cod Mass.
Many years ago I watched a pitcher who held the NCAA D3 record for strike outs in a 7 inning game, she had 21 and did it twice. Runners getting on base because of the dropped 3rd were a part of that.
 

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