- May 17, 2012
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How much of an advantage is it though? 15 MPH? 10 MPH? 1 MPH?
Have you tried this with a pitcher and measured the speed differences?
Crow hopping
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How much of an advantage is it though? 15 MPH? 10 MPH? 1 MPH?
Have you tried this with a pitcher and measured the speed differences?
- Apr 28, 2019
- 1,423
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A
I really don’t understand your stance here. Are you condoning cheating? Is is ok to cheat on your taxes as long as you don’t get audited? I think not!
I would say 1-5 MPH increase. I don’t get your stance in defending cheating. Is it also ok to cheat on your taxes as long as you don’t
I would say it adds 1-5 MPH conservatively. You are closer to home plate and get an extra push-off. It gives the batter less reaction time.
I really don’t understand your stance here. Are you condoning cheating? Is is ok to cheat on your taxes as long as you don’t get audited? I think not!
- May 16, 2016
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ASA Clarification:
https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Softball/News/2012/May/31/May-2012-Plays-and-Clarifications
Fast Pitch Pitching Styles
For the past few months or so we have been asked about a pitching style called a “Push, Drag, Push” or a “Crow Drag in Women’s and Junior Olympic Fast Pitch. This is described as a pitcher that pushes from the pitcher’s plate, drags her pivot foot, stops and pushes again. We have been told that there are some indicators like a bent leg or the pivot foot bearing weight as a factor in this style of pitching. We have looked at several videos and several pitchers. We disagree that any of these pitchers are pushing, dragging, stopping and pushing again. We can see what appears to be a pivot by the pivot foot at the end of their delivery but not a re-push.
Nowhere in the ASA rules does it state anything illegal about the pivot foot bearing weight or the leg being bent. As long as the pivot foot starts on the pitcher's plate and pushes away, remains on the ground within the 24-inch width of the pitcher's plate and the arm continues without stopping in the delivery, it is a legal pitch. The pitcher opening her hips causes the foot to turn (pivot mark in the dirt) and then with pivot foot remaining on the ground (drag mark), the pitcher then closes her hips which produces another pivot mark in the dirt. This is not an illegal pitch by ASA pitching rules. We would also add, it is not possible to push, drag, stop and re-push while the non-pivot foot is in the air. It is possible to re-push if you leap and land.
When watching a pitcher, look from the standpoint they are legal until they do something illegal. Break the rule down to the simplest of terms:
Rule 6, Section 1C[2]: The pitcher shall take a position with both feet in contact with the pitcher’s plate.
Rule 6, Section 2: The pitch starts when the hands are separated once they have been placed together.
Rule 6, Section 3I: In the act of delivering the ball, the pitcher must take one step with the non-pivot foot simultaneous with the release of the ball. The step must be forward and toward the batter within the 24-inch length of the pitcher’s plate. It is not a step if the pitcher slides the pivot foot across the pitcher’s plate toward the batter, or if the pivot foot turns or slides in order to push off the pitcher’s plate, provided contact is maintained with the plate. Raising the foot off the pitching plate and returning it to the plate creates a rocking motion and is an illegal act.
Rule 6 Section 3K: Pushing off and dragging the pivot foot in contact with the ground is required. If a hole has been created, the pivot foot may drag no higher than the level plane of the ground.
Following our rules in simple form should make it easier to determine an illegal pitch in our Women’s and Junior Olympic game.
Plays and Rulings
Video examples of a Crow Hop, notice the ball and glove are not separated at the replant, which is 3 feet off the plate.
https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Softball/News/2012/May/31/May-2012-Plays-and-Clarifications
Fast Pitch Pitching Styles
For the past few months or so we have been asked about a pitching style called a “Push, Drag, Push” or a “Crow Drag in Women’s and Junior Olympic Fast Pitch. This is described as a pitcher that pushes from the pitcher’s plate, drags her pivot foot, stops and pushes again. We have been told that there are some indicators like a bent leg or the pivot foot bearing weight as a factor in this style of pitching. We have looked at several videos and several pitchers. We disagree that any of these pitchers are pushing, dragging, stopping and pushing again. We can see what appears to be a pivot by the pivot foot at the end of their delivery but not a re-push.
Nowhere in the ASA rules does it state anything illegal about the pivot foot bearing weight or the leg being bent. As long as the pivot foot starts on the pitcher's plate and pushes away, remains on the ground within the 24-inch width of the pitcher's plate and the arm continues without stopping in the delivery, it is a legal pitch. The pitcher opening her hips causes the foot to turn (pivot mark in the dirt) and then with pivot foot remaining on the ground (drag mark), the pitcher then closes her hips which produces another pivot mark in the dirt. This is not an illegal pitch by ASA pitching rules. We would also add, it is not possible to push, drag, stop and re-push while the non-pivot foot is in the air. It is possible to re-push if you leap and land.
When watching a pitcher, look from the standpoint they are legal until they do something illegal. Break the rule down to the simplest of terms:
Rule 6, Section 1C[2]: The pitcher shall take a position with both feet in contact with the pitcher’s plate.
Rule 6, Section 2: The pitch starts when the hands are separated once they have been placed together.
Rule 6, Section 3I: In the act of delivering the ball, the pitcher must take one step with the non-pivot foot simultaneous with the release of the ball. The step must be forward and toward the batter within the 24-inch length of the pitcher’s plate. It is not a step if the pitcher slides the pivot foot across the pitcher’s plate toward the batter, or if the pivot foot turns or slides in order to push off the pitcher’s plate, provided contact is maintained with the plate. Raising the foot off the pitching plate and returning it to the plate creates a rocking motion and is an illegal act.
Rule 6 Section 3K: Pushing off and dragging the pivot foot in contact with the ground is required. If a hole has been created, the pivot foot may drag no higher than the level plane of the ground.
Following our rules in simple form should make it easier to determine an illegal pitch in our Women’s and Junior Olympic game.
Plays and Rulings
Video examples of a Crow Hop, notice the ball and glove are not separated at the replant, which is 3 feet off the plate.
- May 17, 2012
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If your daughter plays her whole career with a rule that is never enforced was it really a rule?
Because that's what will happen (and has happened).
- Apr 28, 2019
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Of course it’s still a rule. Just because you don’t get caught or the umps aren’t educated enough to call it doesn’t remove the rule. You make noise and point out the poor mechanics that lead to breaking the rule.
That’s why there are avenues in place to protest games and voice your concerns to the powers that be.
If enough people complain the organizations will need to address the concerns. You can’t or shouldn’t sit on your hands and do nothing.
We had an instance recently where a girl took a step back behind the rubber after being set. And also a girl that swing her arms back several times before delivering the pitch. Both are IP’s. It was brought to the umps attention in both cases and he approached both the offending pitcher and their coach.
The ump explained what the issue was and told the girls how to correct the issue. He even gave them warm-up pitches to let them correct themselves.
In both cases the girls couldn’t master the change so the ump just let them carry on with their illegal ways.
It was only in Middle School games and the ump didn’t want to slow the game down any more than he already had.
So moral of the story is teach proper mechanics from the get go so kids don’t struggle later in careers.
One more nugget for you. Our local D-1 college had a good pitcher that had played for the best travel clubs around. College pitching coach noticed she was illegal. Coach made student pitch in stocking feet until she could feel her drag. There are ways to correct bad teaching and bad mechanics.
- May 17, 2012
- 2,807
- 113
You are missing the point. If you search back through these forums you will see these discussions have happened repeatedly through the years. Nothing ever changes. Period.
Legal pitchers will pitch their whole careers against pitchers who leap and crow hop.
The real question you should be asking is why that is. Why do sanctioning bodies from PGF to the NCAA, umpires, and tournament directors not consistently and effectively enforce this rule?
It's a complicated question but at the heart of it (in my opinion) is that leaping and crow hopping provide negligible benefit.
So while legal pitchers parents and coaches can shout their moral superiority everyone else in the sport shrugs their shoulders and keeps pitching however they want.
Wheresmycar posted the USA pitching clarification which NFHS put out almost the exact same statement at the same time. And that was clear back in 2012. As long as the pitcher is dragging the pivot foot there is nothing in the rule that says it cannot bear weight again or push. Now, if the pivot foot leaves the ground and becomes airborne (above the plain of the ground if there is a hole in front of the pitching plate) there isn't even any need to discuss the replant because the leap makes the pitch illegal. But, the slow motion of Barnhill that was posted there is never any air under her foot and she would be legal per the USA and NFHS pitching clarifications.
IMO, the USA explanation is one big poor justification and excuse for not enforcing the crow hop rule. I have to give it to them, though. They got very creative in explaining it away. The video is even a bad example--that guy can't even "crow drag" as good as some of these girls do. When the hands separate is a lame indicator; we all know most of these girls swing back and their hands are separated long before they even start to stride forward.
Anyone who has ever pitched themselves knows that the "crow drag" is an advantage.
Both USA and NFHS have verbiage specifically prohibiting a pitcher pushing off from anywhere other than the pitcher's plate. The "crow drag" is a pitcher pushing off from somewhere other than the pitcher's plate.
Having said all that....I don't call it during a game. Why? A pitcher can't correct that delivery style without changing her mechanics and that just isn't going to happen during a game. It would be like asking the SS to switch and throw with the opposite hand.
If the pitcher actually goes airborne in the initial push off from the plate, then I will call an IP. But that's as far as I'm willing to take it. It can easily be corrected by continuing to drag the toe on the ground, but the re-plant and push won't go away.
At the end of the day, I think what we're collectively saying is we want to shut down the illegal pitchers but the only way to do that is to have the umpire call IP after IP after IP after IP until the pitcher has to leave the game.
I'm not sure that's ever happened in the history of the game and I'm not willing to be the first one to do it!
Anyone who has ever pitched themselves knows that the "crow drag" is an advantage.
Both USA and NFHS have verbiage specifically prohibiting a pitcher pushing off from anywhere other than the pitcher's plate. The "crow drag" is a pitcher pushing off from somewhere other than the pitcher's plate.
Having said all that....I don't call it during a game. Why? A pitcher can't correct that delivery style without changing her mechanics and that just isn't going to happen during a game. It would be like asking the SS to switch and throw with the opposite hand.
If the pitcher actually goes airborne in the initial push off from the plate, then I will call an IP. But that's as far as I'm willing to take it. It can easily be corrected by continuing to drag the toe on the ground, but the re-plant and push won't go away.
At the end of the day, I think what we're collectively saying is we want to shut down the illegal pitchers but the only way to do that is to have the umpire call IP after IP after IP after IP until the pitcher has to leave the game.
I'm not sure that's ever happened in the history of the game and I'm not willing to be the first one to do it!
This is a fundamental problem. I would worry more about fixing the trench digging and less about others. A good drag is barely in contact with the ground and won't cost speed.
Let me just argue slightly on behalf of the umpires. As long as the foot maintains contact with the ground or as Comp explained, the plane of the ground if there is a hole. Here is the tough spot for the umpires. The overwhelming majority of the fields on which we play re not actually built properly. The pitcher's plate should be flush with the playing surface (NFHS Rule 1-2-3), how many do you see that are? Now we have extra leverage for the push and drag. Pitchers dig deep holes in front of the pitcher's plate that is already above the playing surface so from the plate to the bottom of the trench is often 2-3 inches, no exaggeration. Then we tell umpires, guess where the plane of the ground is supposed to be and don't let her foot be above that.
Umpires want to call the game by the rules. I cannot think of a partner I have ever had that wanted to do anything else. But sometimes that task is more difficult that it ought to be. As we yell at umpires for not calling that 1/2 inch of elevation that pitcher gets when she literally starts above the ground with her pivot foot, let's yell at the grounds crews and coaches that make the fields that set us up for such an incident?
Having said all that I will make two observations:
1. Umpires need to call illegal pitches when they see them (and it's not just the base umpire who can see the feet, if you see an illegal pitch you call the illegal pitch regardless of your position)
2. In our area the number of illegal pitches called has increased this season, I believe, based on the change in penalty from awarding bases to simply awarding a ball to the batter.
Umpires want to call the game by the rules. I cannot think of a partner I have ever had that wanted to do anything else. But sometimes that task is more difficult that it ought to be. As we yell at umpires for not calling that 1/2 inch of elevation that pitcher gets when she literally starts above the ground with her pivot foot, let's yell at the grounds crews and coaches that make the fields that set us up for such an incident?
Having said all that I will make two observations:
1. Umpires need to call illegal pitches when they see them (and it's not just the base umpire who can see the feet, if you see an illegal pitch you call the illegal pitch regardless of your position)
2. In our area the number of illegal pitches called has increased this season, I believe, based on the change in penalty from awarding bases to simply awarding a ball to the batter.
