Topspin Vs Bulletspin, Which is Faster?

[Ken B]

Yup. They transfer energy.

Edit: Or even better, they allow energy to transfer to the ball.

I see the hand/fingers as a lever at the end of another lever (the lower arm), which is at the end of another lever (the upper arm), which is connected to the shoulder, which is connected to the torso, etc.

I think this is really close, but would also add the multiple hinges and the complex elbow/wrist joints as well.

 

[Greenmonsters]

The hand/wrist/fingers can't add velocity? Can't add any??

I'm not sure about the wrist, but that's what I'm thinking about the hand and fingers, at least. They sure can be a source of velocity loss if they dont allow the continued sequential transfer of energy. Regardless, I think their bigger role is to impart spin, but I could very well be wrong too.

I'm just trying to figure this out and whether the whip (or whip at the end of a series of levers?) analogy is a good one. Just trying to pick brains and learn.

 

[Greenmonsters]

Yup. They transfer energy.

Edit: Or even better, they allow energy to transfer to the ball.

This makes sense to me

 

[Doug Romrell]

Yup. They transfer energy.

Edit: Or even better, they allow energy to transfer to the ball.

Of course they (the fingers) allow energy to transfer to the ball.

Imagine, for the sake of discussion, the pitcher had her wrist and the joints of her fingers pinned (like by an orthopedic surgeon), as if the fingers are just a solid extension of her forearm bones. Would the end of those finger tips be traveling the same speed (being completely inflexible) in the arm-whip action of the pitching arm as would be the case with the normal flexible fingers and wrist? Would the pinned wrist and finger joints transfer anywhere near as much energy in the pitch as the flexible fingers and wrist arm-whip pitch?

I don't see the wrist and fingers as ONLY being a mechanism for transferring energy from up the chain. I see them as adding to the already significant energy further up the chain, particularly the forearm whip action (that includes the slowing of the upper arm going into release).

 

[Ken B]

The whip comparison probably isn't perfect. The hinged levers is good, though, however, the arm whip is much more complex. It might be more like a golf or bat swing. Add forearm brush, IR, the bend in the elbow and the interesting path of the forearm at release... There's a lot going on there! The windmill motion is addictively complex!

 

[Ken B]

Doug, I definitely get where you're coming from and agree that a noodle-like wrist is helpful, but would challenge you to gun your girls with and without wrist braces. With a FB, I think you'll find little change. Like GM's said, there's no CB or RB without a limp wrist.

 

[Greenmonsters]

Doug, I definitely get where you're coming from and agree that a noodle like wrist is helpful, but would challenge you to gun your girls with and without wrist braces. With a FB, I think you'll find little change. Like GM's said, there's no CB or RB without a limp wrist.

The other interesting thing to consider is that many report velocities of the movement pitches, particularly the hztl ones where the wrist turns significantly, that are nearly the same as their fastest pitches i.e., FB, drop which suggests to me that the wrist/handfingers plays a minimal velocity role

 

[FP26]

Interesting discussion concerning energy transfer. I wonder if the size of the lever has an impact. Or more the size in relationship to the process. I think most people would agree that the elbow does add speed to the pitch when using IR. comparatively the wrist and fingers range of individual movement is much smaller in the process. So maybe any speed that is added is on the degree of tenths of mph instead of something measurable.

Sorry, spent too much time watching big bang theory last night

 

[Hillhouse]

Sitting in the Detroit airport and I thought I'd see the response to what I wrote the other day about this topic. I was happy to see Rick agreed with me but, now the conversation has digressed into some things I simply don't understand and is over my head. And FrozenRope feels I should contribute more but, I simply cannot keep up with so much of what gets written. I don't understand it.

If there is a way to throw a ball faster using bullet spin, then it's very clear to me I do not understand IR at all. The full whipping motion of elbow, wrist and fingers snapping/whipping in sequence cannot happen with a turn of the wrist that creates bullet spin. Armwhip mentioned cupping the wrist, this is one of the first things I correct in a pitcher when I see them do it. If the wrist is "cupped" then it's already in the "snap" position and the only function it can do is TURN. This is bullet spin. I don't know how to snap my wrist if it's already in a cup position. But then again, maybe I'm just not getting it. That seems to be a habit of mine.

I think a lot of people on this board would benefit from taking 15 minutes at your team practice and pitching the ball to your team's catcher. Try it for yourself. I'm not saying train and go all out to make the US National team. But, questions like this would be answered if people did it for themselves. Whip your arm as hard as you can at the release of the ball, then try to do it with a turn of the wrist for bullet spin. Which goes faster and feels more natural? I'm guessing 75% of the questions that get asked on here could be answered by people who try it themselves. Again, I'm the first one to admit I don't understand where the conversation here has gone to, but to me the answer to the original question is a no brainer.

There is one caveat here: top spin can sometimes be deceptive. A pitcher can appear to have top spin while doing a turn of the wrist that goes OVER the ball (bullet spin has the hand twist UNDER the ball). An extreme of this motion is a chicken wing release. But if she's not chicken winging, she can still be turning her wrist and it gives the appearance of "top spin" from a peel action. But once again, turning the wrist over is not giving the whipping action. So, while it looks like there's top spin, looks can be deceiving!

Bill

 

[PEPPERS]

IMO Bill makes one of the best points here if a coach grabs a ball or bat then test and begins to understand what they are experiencing will make a world of difference when teaching.

IMO most kids can tell a teacher who truly understands the subject or one who just goes through the motion.

Great point Bill!!!!!!!!!!