Softball Slider???

[ArmWhip]

For a couple of years now I have been working with a 12U pitcher who throws a unique curveball. She doesn't know how she does it and can't repeat it when asked. She is very good at noticing break and can throw a legitimate riseball with 80% backspin as well as a pure top spin drop. So she has an above average feel and understanding when it comes to spinning the ball yet is mystified by this pitch. She tells me that in games there are times when all her 'fastballs' have this spin and break. Last week I began to work with an older left hand pitcher who throws the same breaking pitch, she can throw when asked and it is her curveball, but her explanation of how she throws it does not match how the ball spins. The ball has predominantly bullet spin with a spin axis that is elevated about 30 degrees and angled a little to the pitchers glove side. Since the lefty can repeat the pitch I took a lot of video and spent time looking at her release from several angles and looked at the ball flight also. I used the black spotted balls that I always use for spin work. Both pitchers use a three finger grip with the pinky curled up on the side of the ball. When looking at the pitch from the catcher's POV I can see the pinky leading into release and if there is a black dot under the pinky that dot becomes the spin axis for the ball. The easiest way to think about this release is that it is like throwing a football spiral underhand, except the nose is angled up more. As the ball moves past the apex of it's flight and begins to descend the under belly of the ball will begin to receive more air flow so the ball will break in the direction of the spin, to left for a right hander and to the right for a lefty. One possible downside, as a pitcher picks up velocity her ball fight will be flatter and this pitch might not break as much.

 

[jdint]

DD and I have started working on an almost identical pitch, except without the pinky curl. We aren't getting the lateral movement you are, but it is a funky looking pitch from the catchers perspective. DD hasn't been able to throw a backspin curve so we've been experimenting with this pitch. I'll have her read your post and see if she can make some adjustments to get some different movement. I think it can be an effective bullet spin rise as is.

As an aside, we've also started working on what DD refers to as 2 seam fastball. I have no idea the actual grip she uses. The interesting thing about this pitch is that it has no consistent movement. Sometimes it moves left, sometimes it moves slightly right, sometimes is breaks downward and unfortunately, about 1 in 4 are straight as an arrow. The bad thing is, it's extremely hard to catch(at least for me). I've take quite a few off the chest and abdomen cuz I don't know where it's going. No idea what is actually going on with the inconsistent movement, but If I can convince to throw it, I think it could be effective.

I find all this shifted wake stuff fascinating, but difficult to wrap my head around.

 

[El Oso]

For a couple of years now I have been working with a 12U pitcher who throws a unique curveball. She doesn't know how she does it and can't repeat it when asked. She is very good at noticing break and can throw a legitimate riseball with 80% backspin as well as a pure top spin drop. So she has an above average feel and understanding when it comes to spinning the ball yet is mystified by this pitch. She tells me that in games there are times when all her 'fastballs' have this spin and break. Last week I began to work with an older left hand pitcher who throws the same breaking pitch, she can throw when asked and it is her curveball, but her explanation of how she throws it does not match how the ball spins. The ball has predominantly bullet spin with a spin axis that is elevated about 30 degrees and angled a little to the pitchers glove side. Since the lefty can repeat the pitch I took a lot of video and spent time looking at her release from several angles and looked at the ball flight also. I used the black spotted balls that I always use for spin work. Both pitchers use a three finger grip with the pinky curled up on the side of the ball. When looking at the pitch from the catcher's POV I can see the pinky leading into release and if there is a black dot under the pinky that dot becomes the spin axis for the ball. The easiest way to think about this release is that it is like throwing a football spiral underhand, except the nose is angled up more. As the ball moves past the apex of it's flight and begins to descend the under belly of the ball will begin to receive more air flow so the ball will break in the direction of the spin, to left for a right hander and to the right for a lefty. One possible downside, as a pitcher picks up velocity her ball fight will be flatter and this pitch might not break as much.

What direction does their ball move and what direction do you think a slider moves? Names for pitches in softball are weird compared to baseball. In baseball a slider moves laterally and is thrown with R-L spin. That's called a curveball in softball. In baseball a curveball moves vertically down. That's a drop ball in softball. Why? No clue.

 

[LEsoftballdad]

What direction does their ball move and what direction do you think a slider moves? Names for pitches in softball are weird compared to baseball. In baseball a slider moves laterally and is thrown with R-L spin. That's called a curveball in softball. In baseball a curveball moves vertically down. That's a drop ball in softball. Why? No clue.

Baseball has a sinker, which doesn't have a 12-6 spin. It's hard to compare the pitches because they are thrown so differently. Some pitchers have developed the sweeper, like a slider/curve on steroids.

 

[Rolling Hard]

This is a dangerous pitch because it is too flat. If thrown this pitch needs to be spotted inside to freeze batter up and get called strike or hit off the handle or outside off the plate as a chase or waste pitch. I don't like the name waste pitch because every pitch has a purpose. This pitch left over the plate gets smoked. It is like it hunts the barrel.

 

[cnardone]

whatever you call it, down & away movement is the most effective type of movement. at the MLB level side to side sliders are much less effective than those with lots of tilt.

 

[CoachCeetar]

whatever you call it, down & away movement is the most effective type of movement. at the MLB level side to side sliders are much less effective than those with lots of tilt.

Like everything else, it depends how you use it. But these are some impressive whiff numbers for side to side sliders. It's got strong platoon splits too.



Not that traditional sliders do poorly by any means.

But you're always going to end up with more break/movement in baseball because the ball is smaller and coming from farther away. We had this discussion in another thread recently, talking about if you didn't have elite breaking movement on a softball pitch, it might not be worth throwing it at all

Which was precisely Armwhip's concern in the last sentence of the first post. I'm not sure myself, I think as long as you're consistently getting the ball to do what you want, even a little break is useful, as long as your location is good. But pitching always does come down to that location/movement/velocity balance. The more you have of one, the less you need of another. But a pitch that darts down and away from lefties like a baseball slider feels like it would be pretty useful, even with a little break.

 

[sprtfan]

For a couple of years now I have been working with a 12U pitcher who throws a unique curveball. She doesn't know how she does it and can't repeat it when asked. She is very good at noticing break and can throw a legitimate riseball with 80% backspin as well as a pure top spin drop. So she has an above average feel and understanding when it comes to spinning the ball yet is mystified by this pitch. She tells me that in games there are times when all her 'fastballs' have this spin and break. Last week I began to work with an older left hand pitcher who throws the same breaking pitch, she can throw when asked and it is her curveball, but her explanation of how she throws it does not match how the ball spins. The ball has predominantly bullet spin with a spin axis that is elevated about 30 degrees and angled a little to the pitchers glove side. Since the lefty can repeat the pitch I took a lot of video and spent time looking at her release from several angles and looked at the ball flight also. I used the black spotted balls that I always use for spin work. Both pitchers use a three finger grip with the pinky curled up on the side of the ball. When looking at the pitch from the catcher's POV I can see the pinky leading into release and if there is a black dot under the pinky that dot becomes the spin axis for the ball. The easiest way to think about this release is that it is like throwing a football spiral underhand, except the nose is angled up more. As the ball moves past the apex of it's flight and begins to descend the under belly of the ball will begin to receive more air flow so the ball will break in the direction of the spin, to left for a right hander and to the right for a lefty. One possible downside, as a pitcher picks up velocity her ball fight will be flatter and this pitch might not break as much.

This similar to Corkscrew Curve that has been posted and talked about on here a few times? Except the axis of rotation is angled up more?

 

[ArmWhip]

This is a dangerous pitch because it is too flat.

Someone has to explain to me why 'flat' break is bad.

In baseball a slider moves laterally and is thrown with R-L spin.

A slider is thrown with bullet spin, 'gyro' in baseball lingo. It breaks sideways and also has some downward movement. The pitch I am talking about has mostly horizontal break but it has fastball velocity, I forgot to mention that.

In baseball a curveball moves vertically down.

Right, I don't understand that at all.



Maybe it would help to think of this pitch as a curveball with the spin axis tilted down instead of bullet spin with the axis tipped up.

When people think about spin they don't always take into account the trajectory of the ball as it moves from release to the plate. When it comes out of the hand the trajectory is slightly upwards, at the end it's flight it is slightly downward. The ball is only moving horizontally in the middle part of it's flight. So the airflow over the ball changes from start to finish, but the axis of spin remains constant. Technically speaking a curveball with perfectly horizontal spin is getting max break only in the middle of it's flight, when it's spin and air flow are in perfect alignment. A curve thrown with a spin axis tipped forward will get less break early in it's flight but more break as the trajectory degrades, "late break".

 

[jfitch12]

The ball has predominantly bullet spin with a spin axis that is elevated about 30 degrees and angled a little to the pitchers glove side.

This is a softball curve. And a baseball slider. They are the same pitch. Over the last ten years I have caught enough of both to be convinced that they are not really different. No softball pitcher I have ever seen gets true 9-3 sidespin. It always has a gyro component, just like you’ve described (and just as Board member described the cork screw curve a decade ago.) Likewise sliders in baseball can have more sweep or more depth but they are still a predominantly gyro pitch that moves because the axis is tipped up and to the glove side.

The point about location is key. This pitch is most effective thrown in the river on the glove side. Dig out the old video of Littlejohn throwing her curve and that’s what you are looking for. It is flatter than a lot of baseball sliders because it’s not thrown downhill, but it is still effective if located correctly (though not as effective as a true drop or rise).

My 2 cents anyway.


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