Looking for The Experts for knowledge...

[02Crush]

So this past Saturday we played and had a blast....I was a bit upset by the strikes called at the ankles but they were consistent and I kept my mouth shut. A things I am getting better at on strike zone disagreements...

2 things that drove me nuts....and I do not know the answers so I am seeking them here...

1) Bases loaded...Batter hits ball and it is caught by our 1st baseman for an out. The base runner at 1st advances to
2nd stopping short of the base because the runner at 2nd has come back to tag up and not moved as we are in control of the ball, (also keep in mind the 3rd base runner has come back to tag up and is on 3rd base also watching things play out). The 1st base runner turns to come back and our 1st baseman merely jogs over and tags the bag which we all thought was the 2nd out. The runner comes back in and stands on the bag. Umpire calls her safe....

I had this exact same play on my team last year where we were the runners and the ball was hit right at the first basement who caught it and then stepped on the bag b/c we were leading off....it was called an out (double play).
So why now in Saturday's game is it not a double play?
I am confused and need insight.

2) Ball is popped up in the infield...(not infield fly rule at this age) 1st baseman runs up and catches the ball and collides with the pitcher. Both fall down and are dazed..Runners at advance to 2nd and 3rd and stop. When I see them stop I get up as I am worried about the players who collided....The umpire still has not called time. The runners stopped for at least 3 seconds or more watching the down players are then told by their coach to run...they do and score. Both do. Neither of them tagged up. I asked the plate umpire why he did not call time since play seemed halted and there were two kids on the ground. He said nothing and walked off. Meanwhile the two runners left the field of play. I asked the field umpire about tagging up and he did not call them out. I was upset and walked off in an effort not to argue. What is the right call here? Am I missing something?
Thanks in advance.

 

[Ajaywill]

1) Need a bit more information - did the runner on first base leave the bag before the ball was caught? Or did she tag up, leave the base when the ball was first touched, then come back to first? If it was the second scenario, the runner would have to be tagged off of the base to get the out. If it was the first scenario, you are executing a live ball appeal that the runner left the bag before the ball was caught. If this is the case, the umpire needs to know why the defense is touching the bag. Granted, it is usually very obvious since someone is yelling about getting the ball to the bag, etc. The best way to remedy this is to have your player tell the umpire "the runner left early" as they are tagging the bag. That way, there is no doubt about why the player is touching the bag.

2) If I remember correctly, you coach fairly young kids...by rule, the umpire has the discretion to stop play when a player has a "serious" injury. Personally, with the younger kids, I will err on the side of caution and stop play earlier than I would with older kids. The umpire in your game chose not to stop play here. He is within the rules to do so, since it was still a live ball. when you questioned him on why play wasn't stopped, he probably should have given you an explanation as to why he chose not to stop play. To be honest, it could have been in the way you approached him...I can understand you being upset, but if you are calm and civil, you are much more likely to get an appropriate response. I'm not saying you were or were not, just making a point. As far as you asking the BU about the runners not tagging up, depending on the rule set, the coach cannot make a dead ball appeal, which is what you are doing. Simply tell one of your defensive players to approach the umpire and tell him/her that runner(s) did not tag up. At that point the umpire can rule on your appeal.

Hope this helps.

 

[Steve Huff]

So this past Saturday we played and had a blast....I was a bit upset by the strikes called at the ankles but they were consistent and I kept my mouth shut. A things I am getting better at on strike zone disagreements...

2 things that drove me nuts....and I do not know the answers so I am seeking them here...

1) Bases loaded...Batter hits ball and it is caught by our 1st baseman for an out. The base runner at 1st advances to
2nd stopping short of the base because the runner at 2nd has come back to tag up and not moved as we are in control of the ball, (also keep in mind the 3rd base runner has come back to tag up and is on 3rd base also watching things play out). The 1st base runner turns to come back and our 1st baseman merely jogs over and tags the bag which we all thought was the 2nd out. The runner comes back in and stands on the bag. Umpire calls her safe....

I had this exact same play on my team last year where we were the runners and the ball was hit right at the first basement who caught it and then stepped on the bag b/c we were leading off....it was called an out (double play).
So why now in Saturday's game is it not a double play?
I am confused and need insight.

2) Ball is popped up in the infield...(not infield fly rule at this age) 1st baseman runs up and catches the ball and collides with the pitcher. Both fall down and are dazed..Runners at advance to 2nd and 3rd and stop. When I see them stop I get up as I am worried about the players who collided....The umpire still has not called time. The runners stopped for at least 3 seconds or more watching the down players are then told by their coach to run...they do and score. Both do. Neither of them tagged up. I asked the plate umpire why he did not call time since play seemed halted and there were two kids on the ground. He said nothing and walked off. Meanwhile the two runners left the field of play. I asked the field umpire about tagging up and he did not call them out. I was upset and walked off in an effort not to argue. What is the right call here? Am I missing something?
Thanks in advance.

It is obvious on multiple levels that these umpires are over-paid.

 

[MTR]

It is obvious on multiple levels that these umpires are over-paid.

Why do you say that? Without more info, I don't see where there was anything wrong with what has happened. Of course, this is subject to change if there is more info available.

 

[Momo'sDad]

In case #1, it sounds like you were up against a pretty smart baserunner (R3), even though she didn't slide back into 1B. Now your 1B knows she's got to apply the tag on the return if the runner didn't leave early.

In case #2, like yourself, above all else, I want the kids protected out there. On fly balls between 2 players, we want the players to recognize their triangle. There's a hierarchy on who makes the catch and who gets in backup position, but with 2 players on the ground, the 3rd - who is responsible for preventing the collision by calling off the secondary player - would've grabbed the ball and thrown it to the catcher.

Your team is young and as they see it more often, they'll understand that every play continues until the umpire says otherwise.

And as Ajaywill said, you the coach can tell the umpire that the runners left early, but that has no effect on anything. It's just you telling another person what you saw, same as if you were just telling us here what happened. lol However, you would have been fully within your rights to instruct your pitcher to throw the ball to 3B and have her appeal to the umpire prior to pitching to the next batter. Then if less than 3 outs, she could throw it to 2B who could also make an appeal to the umpire.

Now you know more about the rulebook than you did before last weekend.

 

[quincy]

instruct your pitcher to throw the ball to 3B and have her appeal to the umpire prior to pitching to the next batter. Then if less than 3 outs, she could throw it to 2B who could also make an appeal to the umpire.

Under ASA Rules I did not think you needed to throw the ball around, just need to appeal the play before the next pitch.

 

[Momo'sDad]

Under ASA Rules I did not think you needed to throw the ball around, just need to appeal the play before the next pitch.

You are correct. According to the rule in ASA, any infielder can make the appeal (and I have actually just had the pitcher do it before) whether they've got the ball or not, but I mistakenly added my own preference to my response. I want each player to own her domain, which is why I'd want 3B to make the appeal. It's by no means a requirement, though, thanks for clarifying that.

 

[Greenmonsters]

One of the absolutes, although not the most important by a longshot, that you commit to when you agree to coach a team is to read the rule book(s)/rule set governing the games/tournaments your team will be participating in. IMO, not doing this is the equivalent of a kid showing up for a game without a uniform or equipment. Although I like reading the rule books, I really enjoy not needing to have them down cold now that I now longer coach.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Steve Huff]

Why do you say that? Without more info, I don't see where there was anything wrong with what has happened. Of course, this is subject to change if there is more info available.

1) above. How in the world is a caught line-drive and a tag of the base when the runner is off the bag, not an out?
2) above. The runners did not tag up on a fly ball. They advanced and scored. The coach was right in that time should have been called when it was apparent the kids might be injured. I don't know how it was appealed, but an appeal should have been upheld if done legally.

 

[Momo'sDad]

Greenmonsters, you're right, but for people who haven't spent a lot of time in the ASA fastpitch community and especially for newer coaches, just reading the book isn't enough. Many coaches need to have seen or experienced a particular situation in a game in order to understand a given rule or its application. I think the fact that an infielder makes a dead ball appeal is probably counter-intuitive for less experienced coaches who'd come in with the assumption that all appeals were to be made by the coach.

As for the 1st scenario, I don't know 02's full softball/baseball background, but in a non-force out situation, 9-year-olds are capable of being coached to understand why they have to make a tag, the same as we coach them never to just give themselves up by running into a tag. I'm just an outsider giving an opinion on that, though.