I was at the fields tonight scouting a 14U game and saw a play that, quite honestly, I have no idea what the ruling would have been. The batter hit a sharp foul ball that ricocheted off the top of the catchers leg guard (the part that covers above the knee) and popped up a couple of feet in the air and to the right of the catcher. The catcher made a dive for the ball and missed. My question is what would the ruling have been had the catcher caught the ball. Would it have been treated as an out or did hitting the catcher equipment first cause it to be a dead ball? My gut is telling me it would have been an out but I am not sure.
Hypothetical Rule Situation
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If the ball went "sharply" (as in "sharply and directly", or in a straight line) from the bat to the catcher's body/equipment WITHOUT first touching her hands/mitt, then this is just a foul ball. The only way the batter could be out is if the ball was BUNTED with two strikes and became foul.
If the ball went "sharply and directly" from the bat and FIRST touched the catcher's hands/mitt before anything else...two possible outcomes. If subsequently NOT caught, it becomes a foul ball. If subsequently caught, it is a FOUL TIP (ie: a strike to the batter, the ball remains live and the batter is out ONLY if it was strike three).
One more "IF"...If the ball came off the bat "not sharply", but with an arcing path, then so long as the catcher completed a legal catch, this is treated as a caught fly ball. The batter is out and the ball remains live.
If the ball went "sharply and directly" from the bat and FIRST touched the catcher's hands/mitt before anything else...two possible outcomes. If subsequently NOT caught, it becomes a foul ball. If subsequently caught, it is a FOUL TIP (ie: a strike to the batter, the ball remains live and the batter is out ONLY if it was strike three).
One more "IF"...If the ball came off the bat "not sharply", but with an arcing path, then so long as the catcher completed a legal catch, this is treated as a caught fly ball. The batter is out and the ball remains live.
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Bretman,
My use of sharply was misleading. I was using sharply because it was moving fast when it hit the catcher's leg guard. A better description would have been arced down to hit the leg guard. So it appears this would fall into your last scenario and the batter would have been out. Correct?
Rules state that a foul ball is any ball in foul territory that contacts a player or umpires clothing or equipment, attached or detached. the catcher sits in foul territory.
I think the moment it struck the catcher it became foul, unless it was directly caught in hand or glove.
Rules explicitly rule a batted ball that strikes the catcher and is caught by another fielder as being a foul ball. It would make no consistent sense to have it be an out if the catcher caught it after it struck him.
I think the moment it struck the catcher it became foul, unless it was directly caught in hand or glove.
Rules explicitly rule a batted ball that strikes the catcher and is caught by another fielder as being a foul ball. It would make no consistent sense to have it be an out if the catcher caught it after it struck him.
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But as Bretman has already stated, if the ball (that went sharply and directly toward the catcher) first touched the catcher's glove and THEN struck the catcher elsewhere... if controlled before the ball touches the ground it is ruled a FOUL TIP, not a foul ball. This is an exception to the rule you were citing.
Greenmonsters
Wannabe Duck Boat Owner
OK, I'm a nerd and picked up my PONY rulebook from the coffee table (I have to do something to keep distracted during HS ball) and under definition of foul tip (Rule 1 Sec 28) it indicates that it is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless it touched the catchers glove or hand first
Kind of hard to envision exactly what you're describing. But the first thing to consider in making this call is if the ball went from the bat to the catcher in a relative straight line or in an arcing path.
If this did come off the bat in an arcing path, then was caught, it would be a caught foul fly ball (batter out, ball remains live). Once the ball takes an arcing path off the bat, it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to become a foul tip (which, by definition, must travel "sharply and directly" and first touch the catcher's hands/mitt before being caught).
Okay, assume an arcing/nonlinear path off the bat...this is now regarded the same as fly ball. That it hit the catcher's shin guard- or any other part of her body or properly worn equipment- is then irrelevant. The catch that ensues would need to meet the same definition of "a catch" for ANY OTHER batted fly ball. Just like any other fly ball, it can rebound off the fielder and still be legally caught before touching the ground for an out.
I hope that isn't making this more confusing! The reason it might is that this play encompasses several different rules: The rules covering foul tips, foul balls, fly balls and legal catches. That's a lot to roll into one simple play that lasts about one second! The correct final ruling can hinge on what the ball hit, when it hit it, if it was caught, how it was caught and even how many strikes the batter had when it happened. But...before you can rule on any of that...you have to determine if the ball left the bat in a straight line or an arcing path.
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I found this as a supplement to the ASA rule book:
FOUL BALL / FOUL TIP
The reference of the “height of the batter’s head” as it relates to a Foul Ball
and Foul Tip no longer applies. This change, instituted in 2006, allows more
opportunity for the catcher to obtain “outs” by catching foul batted balls the
same as the first and third base person who is playing closer to home plate.
Umpires only need to judge whether the ball moves from the bat “sharply”
and “directly” versus a ball that has a perceptible arc and / or if the catcher
moves their glove / mitt to catch the ball after contact with the bat.
The definition of a foul ball has not changed. However, a foul tip is now
defined as a batted ball that goes sharply and directly from the bat to the
catcher’s glove / mitt or hand and is legally caught by the catcher. It is not
a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the
ball remains live in Fast Pitch and Slow Pitch with stealing. It is not a catch
if the ball rebounds off the catcher, unless the ball has first touched the
catcher’s glove / mitt or hand. Again, a foul tip can only be caught by the
catcher. Examples of foul ball and foul tip follow:
A. A foul ball with “perceptible” arc goes toward the catcher’s left and
the catcher moves their glove / mitt to catch the ball. In this situation,
the batter is out and the ball remains live just as it would when
any other fielder catches a foul fly ball.
B. The foul ball rebounds from the bat with a “perceptible arc” shoulder
high and the catcher moves upward with the glove / mitt to make
the catch. In this situation, the batter is out and the ball remains
live just as it would when any other fielder catches a foul fly ball.
C. The pitcher throws a rise ball and the catcher is moving up as the
pitch is on the way to home plate. The batter squares to bunt the
ball above their head and the ball goes in a straight line from the bat
to the glove / mitt and the catcher catches the ball. In this situation,
it is a foul tip. It does not matter that the ball is above the batter’s
head. The only thing that matters when determining whether it is
a foul tip is the fact that the ball goes directly from the bat to the
catcher’s glove / mitt or hand and then is caught by the catcher.
Umpires must be alert to the fact that runners need to tag-up on a batted
foul ball that is caught. This increases the opportunity for more “outs”, not
only with the catcher catching the ball but the opportunity for more appeal
plays with a runner leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. Remember,
the runner must wait until “first touch” before breaking contact with a base on
a caught fly ball, fair or foul. Runners may leave when the pitch is released
in Fast Pitch and when the pitch reaches the front edge of home plate in
Slow Pitch with stealing, if the ball is judged to be a foul tip.
I have to get myself a rule book and go through it carefully. I didn't know the rule was changed and I am as guilty as a know-it-all parent.
FOUL BALL / FOUL TIP
The reference of the “height of the batter’s head” as it relates to a Foul Ball
and Foul Tip no longer applies. This change, instituted in 2006, allows more
opportunity for the catcher to obtain “outs” by catching foul batted balls the
same as the first and third base person who is playing closer to home plate.
Umpires only need to judge whether the ball moves from the bat “sharply”
and “directly” versus a ball that has a perceptible arc and / or if the catcher
moves their glove / mitt to catch the ball after contact with the bat.
The definition of a foul ball has not changed. However, a foul tip is now
defined as a batted ball that goes sharply and directly from the bat to the
catcher’s glove / mitt or hand and is legally caught by the catcher. It is not
a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the
ball remains live in Fast Pitch and Slow Pitch with stealing. It is not a catch
if the ball rebounds off the catcher, unless the ball has first touched the
catcher’s glove / mitt or hand. Again, a foul tip can only be caught by the
catcher. Examples of foul ball and foul tip follow:
A. A foul ball with “perceptible” arc goes toward the catcher’s left and
the catcher moves their glove / mitt to catch the ball. In this situation,
the batter is out and the ball remains live just as it would when
any other fielder catches a foul fly ball.
B. The foul ball rebounds from the bat with a “perceptible arc” shoulder
high and the catcher moves upward with the glove / mitt to make
the catch. In this situation, the batter is out and the ball remains
live just as it would when any other fielder catches a foul fly ball.
C. The pitcher throws a rise ball and the catcher is moving up as the
pitch is on the way to home plate. The batter squares to bunt the
ball above their head and the ball goes in a straight line from the bat
to the glove / mitt and the catcher catches the ball. In this situation,
it is a foul tip. It does not matter that the ball is above the batter’s
head. The only thing that matters when determining whether it is
a foul tip is the fact that the ball goes directly from the bat to the
catcher’s glove / mitt or hand and then is caught by the catcher.
Umpires must be alert to the fact that runners need to tag-up on a batted
foul ball that is caught. This increases the opportunity for more “outs”, not
only with the catcher catching the ball but the opportunity for more appeal
plays with a runner leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. Remember,
the runner must wait until “first touch” before breaking contact with a base on
a caught fly ball, fair or foul. Runners may leave when the pitch is released
in Fast Pitch and when the pitch reaches the front edge of home plate in
Slow Pitch with stealing, if the ball is judged to be a foul tip.
I have to get myself a rule book and go through it carefully. I didn't know the rule was changed and I am as guilty as a know-it-all parent.
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Greenmonsters
Wannabe Duck Boat Owner
PONY 2010 rule book still contains batter height reference. Bretman or other opinions on how much PONY differs from ASA in general?
I can't really speak directly to the PONY/ASA rule differences as I've never officiated a PONY game. My only PONY experience is that I played PONY baseball between the ages of 13-15!
But I can address the ASA rule change and the whole "higher than the batter's head" thing.
The old rule was that a FOUL TIP (which is altogether different than a foul ball) could not go higher than the batter's head. And that was the only rule that had this height requirement- the definition of a foul tip. Under the old rule, a foul tip had to: a) Go sharply and directly from the bat (straight line); b) First touch the catcher's hands before being caught, and; c) NOT go higher than the batter's head.
This often caused a lot of confusion. People just automatically assumed that since a foul tip could not go higher than the batter's head, the opposite must be true- that a ball coming off the bat with an arcing path (non-linear and treated as a fly ball) HAD TO go higher than the batter's head to be caught for an out. That was never the case. There was never any height requirement for how high a fly ball had to go before being caught for an out.
Some sanctioning bodies still retain the "higher than the batter's head" requirement in their definition of a foul tip. In those rule sets, a batted ball that goes "sharp and direct" to the catcher's hands and is caught is a foul tip if it's below the batter's head, a foul ball if it goes higher.
To remove the confusion, ASA- and others- removed the "higher than the batter's head" clause from their foul tip definition. The newer version of the rule also recognizes that it's entirely possible for a catcher to be coming up from her stance, as on a rise ball or high pitch, have the bat barely nick the ball and have it be caught above the batter's height. This is now ruled as a foul tip in ASA softball.
Actually, none of that would have any bearing at all on the call in the first post! That batted ball was neither "sharply and directly" hit to the catcher's hands, nor was it higher than the batter's head. The ruling would be exactly the same under the older ASA rule, the newer ASA or even the PONY rules. If the ball went sharply (straight line) to the catcher's shin guard, it is a foul ball. If if came of the bat in an arcing path (non-linear) it is regarded as a fly ball and may be caught for an out, regardless of height, after rebounding off the catcher.
But I can address the ASA rule change and the whole "higher than the batter's head" thing.
The old rule was that a FOUL TIP (which is altogether different than a foul ball) could not go higher than the batter's head. And that was the only rule that had this height requirement- the definition of a foul tip. Under the old rule, a foul tip had to: a) Go sharply and directly from the bat (straight line); b) First touch the catcher's hands before being caught, and; c) NOT go higher than the batter's head.
This often caused a lot of confusion. People just automatically assumed that since a foul tip could not go higher than the batter's head, the opposite must be true- that a ball coming off the bat with an arcing path (non-linear and treated as a fly ball) HAD TO go higher than the batter's head to be caught for an out. That was never the case. There was never any height requirement for how high a fly ball had to go before being caught for an out.
Some sanctioning bodies still retain the "higher than the batter's head" requirement in their definition of a foul tip. In those rule sets, a batted ball that goes "sharp and direct" to the catcher's hands and is caught is a foul tip if it's below the batter's head, a foul ball if it goes higher.
To remove the confusion, ASA- and others- removed the "higher than the batter's head" clause from their foul tip definition. The newer version of the rule also recognizes that it's entirely possible for a catcher to be coming up from her stance, as on a rise ball or high pitch, have the bat barely nick the ball and have it be caught above the batter's height. This is now ruled as a foul tip in ASA softball.
Actually, none of that would have any bearing at all on the call in the first post! That batted ball was neither "sharply and directly" hit to the catcher's hands, nor was it higher than the batter's head. The ruling would be exactly the same under the older ASA rule, the newer ASA or even the PONY rules. If the ball went sharply (straight line) to the catcher's shin guard, it is a foul ball. If if came of the bat in an arcing path (non-linear) it is regarded as a fly ball and may be caught for an out, regardless of height, after rebounding off the catcher.
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