Fastball frenzy or not?

[GOINGDEEP]

Here's another reason I've been turning my brain. I posted on here back in the spring my older brother changed his DS from overhand to submarine style. ( similar to our FP ) Well he went from an average OH pitcher to a very successful submarine. His honors just this spring.......

All district 1 team, all region team, all region tournament team, all Shelby Metro team, All Tennessee baseball coaches association state team, co-MVP regional tournament, pitcher of the year for his school.

He's 6'5 now, tall and lanky..........perfect build for submariners.

[/IMG]

My brother has adopted some of our mechanics/grips to his DS pitching choices. And thats when my wheels started turning as to what FP can learn from the BB side of submarine style.

To watch him work his CU ( FP has ) his breaking ball speeds ( FP has ) and then go to his FB ( what we claim we don't have ) is impressive. Being able to go a decent way down in speed ( CU ) mid speed ( breaking ) and then up in speed ( FB ) and be close to our underhand motion....................must be something there to consider??

 

[CoachFP]

The bottom line is if you can make it move and control it there is no such thing as a fastball.

 

[Greenmonsters]

Very good points.

Let's take the rise ball FP. Most of the time the "rise" is thrown very hard, it has to be to deal with gravity. But essentially it's just a FB ( doesn't matter how you grip it ), in BB we call that "the high hard one". I've never seen a rise jump up to the sky, what I have seen is some continue to move in an upward motion due to the speed and "angle" of the pitch.

Covering Star's last quote:
That's what I'm implying. Changing the way we look at the game. Or at least offer a new option to keep batters on their toes. That's why I stated I ( we PC's ) would have to approach this with a younger prodigy and advance from there.

Ask yourself this, how would MLB be if all the pitches were thrown the same speed? Do you think they would have "much" trouble adjusting to movement if they didn't have to worry with that one "flat" pitch that's coming 10+ MPH faster at any time. At 90 MPH BB or 60 MPH FP the batter has roughly .45 seconds to react.

Let's take last night, Motte comes in. Everyone in the dugout, 40,000 fans, millions watching from home all know he will throw 95% fastballs. But in the back if the batters mind there is a small chance he will go off speed. Just enough confusion in the mind where it's hard to make successful contact with his FB.

Thats what I'm stressing with FP. If we took that similar approach and lowered breaking speed to maximize movement and had a nasty FB 6+ MPH to throw in the mix I think that would be deadly to a batters mindset and rhythm.

IMO, the obsession with velocity seems to lock in most pitchers to just 2 speeds - fast and slow. Take a pitcher who "only" has 5 pitches - screw, curve, rise, drop, change - the change is the only one that really is thrown slow, the others are normally thrown max effort and typically are within 2-5 mph of each other.

Consider that the 5-pitch arsenal grows to 8 when the curve, screw, and drop are ALSO thrown at 10-15% less than max effort because these pitches now should have more movement (if thrown w/ proper spin, which is vefiable by Rev Fire) and they introduce a 3rd speed zone for a hitter to try to time and square up a pitch. With 8 pitches and good accuracy, even a coach on a bucket should be able to figure out a way to keep hitters off balance.

In several previous DFP posts, Hal Skinner has promoted the greater benefits that can be achieved by throwing pitches with even more velocity variations.

 

[GOINGDEEP]

GM, right on target.

Let's take an age group easy for us all to compare. Top D1 pitchers. Now let's say our pitcher can throw a 75 mph FB. A 57 mph change up. And adjusts to the "theory" I'm describing breaking balls at 66-68 mph. That's an 18 mph area they have to cover mentally in the box.

Some will say "well if she throws her breaking balls 75 and CU 57..........that's still 18 mph to cover". True, but it's only 2 speeds to adjust to. That's a .500 chance you take, add in the theory of 3 major pitching speeds it goes down to a .333 chance.

Is the pitch actually a fastball or breaking?
Is it going to be a strike if I don’t swing at it?
Is it going to be high or low?
Is it going to be inside or outside?
Should I Swing or not swing?
By the time these decisions are made, the ball is rapidly approaching. That's why you see MLB freeze sometimes on a FB, shake their head like "he just blew that one by me" "I wasn't expecting that". Mostly because they were sitting on a breaking pitch to be thrown. And timing that breaking pitch mentally right before its released.......until here comes the FB.

The reaction time for a 95 mph FB is .43 seconds, time for a 80 mph curve .53. Not a lot of time for the mind to process the information and signal the muscles to react.

 

[Greenmonsters]

Mariano Riveria is living proof that if you can hit your location 99% of the time with just one movement pitch, you can be dominant with at best average MLB velocity even if it's the only pitch you throw and the batter knows its coming. The other key to his success IMO is that he's a closer who pitches 1 inning so hitter's see him once (if at all) during a game and can't adjust. As a starter, he wouldn't be nearly as succesfull.

 

[GOINGDEEP]

Mariano Riveria is living proof that if you can hit your location 99% of the time with just one movement pitch, you can be dominant with at best average MLB velocity even if it's the only pitch you throw and the batter knows its coming. The other key to his success IMO is that he's a closer who pitches 1 inning so hitter's see him once (if at all) during a game and can't adjust. As a starter, he wouldn't be nearly as succesfull.

I agree with what you're saying about a closer vs starter. That's why for my formula to work in FP you'd have to have a deeper bullpen, specialty pitchers. I also think it would add appeal to the game itself. Maybe I've spent too much time in BB, but there is a level of excitement when a new "different" pitcher comes in. The batters approach changes too. Sometimes watching the same pitcher 7 innings every game bores me to tears in FP.

 

[Greenmonsters]

A case for the effectiveness of 3 speeds

..Tigers rout Yankees 8-1 for 4-game ALCS sweep
By NOAH TRISTER (AP Sports Writer) | The Associated Press – 37 minutes ago
..
Scherzer allowed a run and two hits in 5 2-3 innings in the finale, struck out 10 and walked two.

''I really had my changeup and my slider going,'' he said. ''When I can combine that with my fastball, that's what makes me effective.''



PS - The Tigers were my 2nd favorite team.

 

[Greenmonsters]

I agree with what you're saying about a closer vs starter. That's why for my formula to work in FP you'd have to have a deeper bullpen, specialty pitchers. I also think it would add appeal to the game itself. Maybe I've spent too much time in BB, but there is a level of excitement when a new "different" pitcher comes in. The batters approach changes too. Sometimes watching the same pitcher 7 innings every game bores me to tears in FP.

Third time through the order is a real challenge - the good hitters will have the timing down and made adjustments. Bring in a pitcher with a contrasting style can be devastatingly effective even if she doesn't throw 60! Was it Louisville that used a closer this year and during the WCWS? She had really bad knees, something like 5 ACL surgeries, so they spotted her as a closer. IIRC, it worked well until one of the knees literally gave out during their last game.

 

[chinamigarden]

My dd is moving up to 16u this year. Last year she pitched for the HS JV team and her 14U team, plus a couple of tourneys with the orgs. 18u team.

She still throws fastballs. Probably half of her pitches are fb. Of course when she is hitting the corner some might call them screwballs or curves The pitch she got most of her strikeouts on, and she averaged over 10 a game, was her fastball on the RH batters outside corner. Her fastball tails, it moves quite a bit for a non breaking ball so it helps that she can start it outside and it moves back in, or if she starts it out inside it gets in on the hands. But its a fastball with no attempt to make it move, its just how it works for her.

BTW so far in her "career" no balls have been hit over the fence, its not like that fastball is being feasted on by anyone. The hardest hit balls against her have been on drop curves that didn't drop or curve, those hangers are dangerous.

 

[chinamigarden]

A case for the effectiveness of 3 speeds

..Tigers rout Yankees 8-1 for 4-game ALCS sweep
By NOAH TRISTER (AP Sports Writer) | The Associated Press – 37 minutes ago
..
Scherzer allowed a run and two hits in 5 2-3 innings in the finale, struck out 10 and walked two.

''I really had my changeup and my slider going,'' he said. ''When I can combine that with my fastball, that's what makes me effective.''



PS - The Tigers were my 2nd favorite team.

If Scherzer pitched the first month of the season like he pitched the rest of the year he would be the Cy Young winner. His fastball is almost like a rise ball, he gets under it a bit and it seems to have that riseball spin, its a great pitch.