Fastball frenzy or not?

[GOINGDEEP]

We've had some heated debates on the use of the FB on this forum. But I've really never heard a good intelligent explanation as to why they are obsolete. ( or why we think they are obsolete ) I've never seen any data to back up that a good FB every now and then can't be successful. ( all levels )

You know I'm watching the Cards game last night and I see Motte throw 18 fastballs in a row for the final 6 outs. Then I think "why in the world do we claim that FB in FP have no place 14u and up"? It makes no sense the best batters in the world struggle with the heat, are we implying teenage and college FP batters are too advanced for an occasional FB?

Interview in June:
“I’m a fastball pitcher,” Motte told a throng of reporters gathered around his locker. “It’s one of those things where (the hitter is) not sitting on anything. I had guys sit on (the fastball) and pop it right up. It’s not the pitch. You can’t throw fastballs? That’s absurd. I’m going to keep throwing fastballs. I threw some off-speed pitches that inning as well. I’m going to continue to throw fastballs. I’m not going to go out there and all of a sudden become a curveball/knuckleball guy. You can go ahead and put that wherever you want.”

First thing people say is "FP can throw their breaking balls very close to FB speeds". Ok, well lets use Osterman's view. She has stated several times her success was she threw slower than most of the elite pitchers, but because she threw slower it had more movement. ( more time to face turbulence )

Why don't more people use Cat's success as a model and incorporate the gas ( FB ) into the rotation?

By Cat's model:
If I could have 3 eight year olds and start them pitching this style. Two of them I'd teach them to throw their breaking balls slower for more movement. Using gravity and air turbulence to the advantage. ( when I say slower I mean off speed not CU speed / similar to BB speed for breaking balls vs FB ) These same two I would develope their FB to be 7-8 MPH faster than the breaking. That way batters seeing "moving pitches" at ___ mph and then smoke one in at ___ mph. ( works every night of the week in MLB )

My last prodigy would be my FP closer. I'd have to find one or teach one who threw a good 5 MPH over what other top ( conventional ) pitchers are throwing in her age group. Advantage would be we wouldn't have to spend hours and years on movement pitches........just increasing her FB speed and pin point accuracy.

I would try this with my own DD but I don't think the transition would work at 17. I'd have to start from day one to build this theory up over years of experimentation.

Just some thoughts, opinions welcome.

 

[EP Dad]

Not sure I like the idea of fastballs. Seen too many tiny girls at the NCAA level poke their bats out and have the ball fly over the fence. Cat, who you cite above, doesn't throw fastballs. Her fastball is her peel drop.

 

[GOINGDEEP]

Not sure I like the idea of fastballs. Seen too many tiny girls at the NCAA level poke their bats out and have the ball fly over the fence. Cat, who you cite above, doesn't throw fastballs. Her fastball is her peel drop.

Balls fly over the fence in MLB all the time too, on all different type pitches.

Let's think about the peel drop. Grip your peel drop, now turn your hand over as to throw it overhand. Look pretty familiar to a 4 seam baseball FB? ( minus ring finger due to size )

 

[Greenmonsters]

I'm with you brother. The greater the range that you can change speed in, the better. The more movement, the better. The more accurate locating, the better. Strikeouts are great, take as many as you can get, but some balls are going to get hit. And for those balls that do get hit, the more effectively you disrupt the hitters' timing by changing speed (which is a function of spin and includes movement) and location, the more you reduce the chances of the ball getting squared up and hit well.

From a physics standpoint, assuming the same effort (i.e., same arm speed), a ball with less spin will have higher velocity than a ball thrown with more spin. This is contradictory with the recent thread that ID'd several P's fastest pitch as a screwball (others may say rise) puzzling. GD's insight that his DD's screw might be considered a 2-seam/running/cut fastball in BB terms, introduces the possibility that in FP SB that the emphasis on a pitcher having multiple pitches results in a semantics difference between BB and SB.

If the following are considered relative equivalents (BB v. FP SB)

cut/2-seam FB = screwball (fast)
screwball = screwball (slower)
4-seam/rising FB = rise
sinker = drop
curve=curve
slider=curve (faster)
change=change
fastball= not thrown (but should be sometimes!)

Then, maybe SB pitchers really do throw fastballs.

 

[YOCOACH]

I agree that the Fastball is not obsolete even in the older age groups. However, the problem I have with my pitchers throwing one is that it doesn't change planes, therefore is predictable in it's flight path. Thus, even an average batter can make contact if they have good bat/hand speed.

Any time a ball is put into play there is an opportunity for errors. The more players that handle the ball, the more opportunities for errors to arise. If I keep the ball between my pitcher and my catcher by throwing pitches that change planes with almost the same speed as a FB, I take these average batters out of play for the most part.

Also, a very good batter/excellent will make you pay for that fast ball more often than not. Why not make it harder for them to hit the ball square by having it change planes?

Just my 2 cents.

 

[starsnuffer]

The problem with fastballs in fastpitch is that they are not any faster then any of the other pitches. Hell, I hear "her riseball/screwball is her fastest pitch" all the time.

In order for a fastball to be effective, it has to be fast enough to interfere with the batters timing. I believe that 4-5mph is enough of a speed difference to effect a good batters timing. I've not come across any pitcher who has a fastball 4-5 mph faster then her drop/rise/curve/screw.

Perhaps the reason for this is speed obsessed coaches at the youth and college levels. You RARELY see pitchers changing speeds and using offspeed pitches. They're nearly all either going full speed ahead or throwing a changeup. I know that most good pitching coaches teach how to mix up speeds, how to palm the ball for an offspeed variation of whatever pitch. . . but I don't see these techniques being put to use in games. So, without anything being offspeed, nothing can be "fast".

You can argue all day that a fastball is supposed to be a straight pitch, and everything else curves, drifts, or breaks. You'll get a fair amount of people arguing back that many of those "breaking" pitches don't even break, such as the rise or the screw, so then you're back talking about several pitches that are thrown relatively straight and at similar speeds. We can go around and around all day I suppose.

When you find a pitcher that has a pitch that's 4-5mph faster then anything else in her arsenal. . . where the rest of her arsenal is at an average to good speed for her age group, then you will have found a pitcher who has the potential to use a successful fastball. Until then, we're stuck with the "Fastball" being the pitch that the coach thinks the kid can throw for a strike and nothing more.

-W

 

[nanotech14]

Not sure I like the idea of fastballs. Seen too many tiny girls at the NCAA level poke their bats out and have the ball fly over the fence. Cat, who you cite above, doesn't throw fastballs. Her fastball is her peel drop.

I cant say that I completly agree with Cat not throwing a FB. She does say that her peel drop is her go to pitch, but have never heard her say that she doesn't throw a FB. At least I have never heard her say that, but there again, I have not heard every interview she has given either. Not saying your wrong EP Dad.

 

[BoardMember]

Until then, we're stuck with the "Fastball" being the pitch that the coach thinks the kid can throw for a strike and nothing more.

-W

While the rest of the post was good Snuff, I'd like to focus in on the highlight above.........

With this in mind........Does anyone here REALLY BELIEVE that pitchers should NEVER throw fastball and coaches should NEVER call them?

Bases full, 3-0 count, 7 hitter up who's 0 for 2 at the plate........I know.......Lets throw a lower percentage pitch that moves, down, or up, or sideways!............Really?

7-0 we're ahead. No one on........8 hitter up.........I know! Lets throw Drop/Screw/Rise/Change/Curve! And over pitch the hell out of the situation.........

How many times have you accidently WALKED the 3 worst hitters on the team because you OVER PITCHED to them and put the pitcher in a hole right from the get go..........

Common people........While it sounds glittery to say great pitchers never throw fastball.........It's NOT reality.........

 

[Indiana]

Reggie Jackson on Nolan Ryan: "Every hitter likes fastballs just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon."

 

[starsnuffer]

While the rest of the post was good Snuff, I'd like to focus in on the highlight above.........

With this in mind........Does anyone here REALLY BELIEVE that pitchers should NEVER throw fastball and coaches should NEVER call them?

Bases full, 3-0 count, 7 hitter up who's 0 for 2 at the plate........I know.......Lets throw a lower percentage pitch that moves, down, or up, or sideways!............Really?

7-0 we're ahead. No one on........8 hitter up.........I know! Lets throw Drop/Screw/Rise/Change/Curve! And over pitch the hell out of the situation.........

How many times have you accidently WALKED the 3 worst hitters on the team because you OVER PITCHED to them and put the pitcher in a hole right from the get go..........

Common people........While it sounds glittery to say great pitchers never throw fastball.........It's NOT reality.........

I hear you Boardmember. I think this is worthy discussing in another thread so we don't derail this one.

-W