Diving and awarding an error..

[_MIA_]

I never dove for a ball and not expected to make the play..as a matter of fact with my crappy attitude I probably would have kicked at the dirt a few times. That said my expectation to make the play doesn’t matter when deciding whether it was scored an error or not.

 

[Towny9]

This is genuinely hysterical.

I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle. There will be people who score an error on any ball that goes off a fielders glove. There are others who would consider more than a step or two extraordinary effort (aka the batter’s parents).

I’ve always tried to score using Strike2’s example: when in doubt, the hitter gets the benefit. Even if the diving player comes up with the ball and then makes a bad throw, it’s still a hit. There’s only an error if the ball gets away, because every base has to be accounted for. In that situation, it’s a single plus an error on the throw.


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Had to edit that - definitely meant should not be an error.

 

[CoachJD]

Necessary for one is not necessary for another.

Yes there are times when player Dives and the ball goes in their glove and rolls out. Error

RAD, I think what you're missing here is... this is not actually a matter of opinion. I tried to explain that in the other thread.

You can think some missed diving plays should have been made, but your opinion (and mine, and everybody's for that matter) is irrelevant. We have scoring rules and standards, and diving plays, when a dive is necessary for that individual player to get to the ball, is never, ever an error (on the catch).

And that's why errors are a terrible standard by which you should judge defensive ability! They're an incomplete, flawed stat that cannot encompass a whole bunch of variables.

You're trying to square peg/round hole something here. At the core of the matter, you're absolutely right about some defensive plays being missed defensive opportunities. But they are objectively not errors from a scorekeeping standpoint.

During a particularly rough defensive stretch last year, I started tracking errors + missed plays each game. We set a number for the team to finish under each game. I counted the true errors. But I also kept track of the plays that were not errors but should've been made. These are the plays you're talking about. I get your perspective on them. They're just not categorized as errors in our sport.

 

[CoachJD]

I’ve always tried to score using Strike2’s example: when in doubt, the hitter gets the benefit. Even if the diving player comes up with the ball and then makes a bad throw, it’s still a hit. There’s only an error if the ball gets away, because every base has to be accounted for. In that situation, it’s a single plus an error on the throw.

Agree, mostly. It depends on the situation though. If F4 dives for a ball, makes the play, the batter-runner slips at home plate and is 50 feet from first when F4 gets up to make the throw, I'm giving her an error if she makes a throw wild enough for the batter-runner to be safe. And sure, that's an extreme example to prove the point. Almost always, a bad throw on a play that required extraordinary effort to catch the ball in the first place is not an error unless runners advance extra bases.

What's so crazy about these discussions is that we have like 150 years of professional baseball scoring as precedence and people just ignore all that to toss out whatever random thought they have on the topic. I know, different sports. But the scoring of the sports is virtually identical, so it's completely fair to look at how professional scorekeepers do the job and apply those principles to your dumb little 10u game where the scorekeeping doesn't matter anyway as long as you don't let parents see who got the errors and who didn't.

 

[radness]

Nice to read others acknowledge the playing perspective also.
Not just a scorekeeper perspective

. At the core of the matter, you're absolutely right about some defensive plays being missed defensive opportunities.

But they are objectively not errors from a scorekeeping standpoint.

Objectively reflecting your post in the other thread, if you have 'different Talent levels' on your field do you view objectively all the players the same?
It appears you wouldnt from your other post.
Just asking

Obviously If everybody has the same Talent level it is easier to come up with a standard across the board but the fact is that not all teams have the same level of players. There may be an extraordinary Talent on the team that makes ordinary plays very easily. But another player that makes ordinary plays seem extraordinary really hard. That is why I share the perspective and question about observation of talent level.
While one player can stay on their feet to try and make the play they could still miss it and would be charged an error but another player who doesn't have the speed on their feet may chose to dive in which case they would not get an error, however the play distance could be the same.

That is why I responded enquiring to your post in the other thread

 

[MNDad]

Misjudging a ball can be an error, albeit very rare in practice. If the flyball is hit right at you and you run away from it because you misjudge it that is an error because an “average outfielder” should catch a ball right at them with “normal effort”.

A fly ball that falls in between two outfielders because of poor communication can similarly be an error. In practice this is usually scored as a hit, unless the pitcher has a no-hitter going then it is usually ruled an error. This is where the “judgment” of the score keeper comes into play.

Misjudging a ball would be a mental error. Mental errors are never scored as errors. I don’t agree with it, but it’s the rules.

 

[Towny9]

Misjudging a ball would be a mental error. Mental errors are never scored as errors. I don’t agree with it, but it’s the rules.

I think it’s the multiple baseball meanings of the word “misjudge” causing us to disagree on this one. If a flyball is dropped (touching the glove or not) because the player “misjudged” the flyball, that is a physical error. He doesn’t have to touch it for it to be an error. If an infielder fields a ball successfully and makes a “misjudgement” and tries to get the lead out but the runner beats the throw, an error is not given even though he could have gotten the runner at first. That “misjudgment” is a mental error and those are not errors as you stated.

 

[Towny9]

I will also add. It’s hard to come up with blanket statements based on situations without being there and seeing the play for yourself. Easy flyballs that drop In the infield are usually scored as air as, but if there’s a 50 mile an hour wind blowing that day it may very will be a hit.

 

[Westwind]

I voted “No”. Ordinary effort etc.

Errors are important. Fussing about errors is a fast track to Unintended Consequences.

Especially at a young age, with parents that know the team stats and privately make a big deal of them with their kid. I visualize that as “You are the best shortstop on the team. You didn’t commit any errors. Susie committed THREE this weekend.“.

In the above example, Susie was trying to find her range and was going for balls at the edge of her range.

Some, not all, kids are going to pull up from plays they might be able to make and “not touch the ball” so they “won’t commit an error”.

Measure something else. The best rebounder in NCAA basketball got better when his coach emphasized and measured rebound attempts instead of rebounds. The difference is subtle. But when you encourage “go for it” you get more “got its”.

 

[_MIA_]

The more recent advanced defensive metrics (outs above average for example) are not really capable of being computed without the availability of something like statcast hence the next best thing is to have a coach which knows wth they are looking at..