Bulletspin finally recognized

[DropcityUSA]

They just mentioned Deal’s bullet spin curve.

 

[Northball]

They just mentioned Deal’s bullet spin curve.

I caught that too.
It got me thinking, we always talk about bullet spin here as a stabilizing force that will keep a bullet on a straighter trajectory, then we apply it to a softball. But a bullet doesn't have seams. Could the bullet spinning ball with its seams rotating in one direction combined with the drop from gravity actually provide an air imbalance causing it to veer toward one side?

 

[DropcityUSA]

I caught that too.
It got me thinking, we always talk about bullet spin here as a stabilizing force that will keep a bullet on a straighter trajectory, then we apply it to a softball. But a bullet doesn't have seams. Could the bullet spinning ball with its seams rotating in one direction combined with the drop from gravity actually provide an air imbalance causing it to veer toward one side?

My view from the prior thread:

At the end of the day, spin has very little to do with the movement of most pitches, as it’s not what causes the movement. Movement is caused by pressure differences around the ball from rough and smooth surfaces, combined with the pitch angle.


Why? Because laminar flow is more powerful than the magnus effect. Laminar will move a ball without spin. Spin a ball with the opposite laminar force and it isn’t moving the direction you want it to move based on spin. I’ve seen a curve ball demonstrated with proper curve spin and an opposing laminar and it goes more in.

That’s also how a screwball is thrown. Not with spin, but using laminar and seam orientation.

Just like HD cameras showed that high-end pitchers weren’t using HE, newer technology is also now showing that most pitchers aren’t spinning balls to make them move (outside of drops), it’s slight changes in release angle and laminar flow.

And yes, much more study had been done in cricket than softball.

 

[ArmWhip]

It got me thinking, we always talk about bullet spin here as a stabilizing force that will keep a bullet on a straighter trajectory, then we apply it to a softball. But a bullet doesn't have seams. Could the bullet spinning ball with its seams rotating in one direction combined with the drop from gravity actually provide an air imbalance causing it to veer toward one side?

You have to take a deeper look to understand these things. Bullet spin by definition is always oriented in the direction the bullet is traveling, and will keep it on track as long as this remains true. Rather than a bullet use a football. The ball will travel straight as long as the nose remains pointed in the direction of travel. So when the ball passes the top of it's arc and begins to travel downward the axis of spin has to change and point downward into the changing direction of travel, or the bullet spin effect is lost. If the axis of spin remains pointed in the direction that it had when the ball was launched (slightly upward) then as the ball crests and begins to fall more air will hit the bottom of the spinning ball and the Magnus force will begin to have an effect, the ball will curve in the direction of the spin. This is how a 'bullet spin' slider breaks horizontally, with more of the break happening at the end of it's flight as the trajectory turns downward, but the axis of spin remains constant.

 

[Northball]

You have to take a deeper look to understand these things. Bullet spin by definition is always oriented in the direction the bullet is traveling, and will keep it on track as long as this remains true. Rather than a bullet use a football. The ball will travel straight as long as the nose remains pointed in the direction of travel. So when the ball passes the top of it's arc and begins to travel downward the axis of spin has to change and point downward into the changing direction of travel, or the bullet spin effect is lost. If the axis of spin remains pointed in the direction that it had when the ball was launched (slightly upward) then as the ball crests and begins to fall more air will hit the bottom of the spinning ball and the Magnus force will begin to have an effect, the ball will curve in the direction of the spin. This is how a 'bullet spin' slider breaks horizontally, with more of the break happening at the end of it's flight as the trajectory turns downward, but the axis of spin remains constant.

Nice. Never thought of the football, nose pointing slightly upward when the quarterback releases, then transitioning to nose pointing slightly downward when the receiver catches it. One would think the ball would stay nose up, like an airplane landing.
Side note, I wouldn't want to be on a bullet-spinning airplane trying to land.

 

[CaledoniaDad]

Side note, I wouldn't want to be on a bullet-spinning airplane trying to land.

That is called a helicopter (at least when it is autorotating).

I spoke with Rick Pauly the other night for my pitching coach training and lo and behold we talked about the large dot gyro spin on the riseball caused by mechanics breakdown due to sheer velocity of the throws. I grabbed my DD's SEC foul ball she picked up during the regular season at a TN vs MS State game and the SEC symbol is smack dab in the middle of the horseshoe, providing a nice black target in the middle of a bright yellow ball. The WCWS balls had the same logo placement. It got me wondering if pitchers even notice they are giving something for the batter to look at because Oklahoma was on point hitting pitches with gyro spin (the highlight reels in slow motion show the dot on the ball very well).

 

[RADcatchers]

Good read drop City

My view from the prior thread:

At the end of the day, spin has very little to do with the movement of most pitches,

Share my perspective
spin/& its axis are important because it creates the environment to utilize laminar.
Creating the opportunity for the surface air to flow certain directions.
( aka:including different seam grips)

as it’s not what causes the movement. Movement is caused by pressure differences around the ball from rough and smooth surfaces, combined with the pitch angle.


Why? Because laminar flow is more powerful than the magnus effect. Laminar will move a ball without spin. Spin a ball with the opposite laminar force and it isn’t moving the direction you want it to move based on spin. I’ve seen a curve ball demonstrated with proper curve spin and an opposing laminar and it goes more in.

That’s also how a screwball is thrown. Not with spin, but using laminar and seam orientation.

Just like HD cameras showed that high-end pitchers weren’t using HE, newer technology is also now showing that most pitchers aren’t spinning balls to make them move (outside of drops), it’s slight changes in release angle and laminar flow.

And yes, much more study had been done in cricket than softball.

Like the cross reference about movement in other sports!

There has been previous conversation posted on dfp of cricket explaining use of spin and as well slow pitch and being able to see how the ball's movement happens after the ark and the ball coming down in slow pitch. Utilizing Spin and laminar. Lots of movement not related to high speed.

 

[RADcatchers]

It got me wondering if pitchers even notice they are giving something for the batter to look at

little fun here...
YES ?GIANT YELLOW BALL INCOMMING??

because Oklahoma was on point hitting pitches with gyro spin

Not saying this to be snarky but..... ?Oklahoma is on point with hitting everything ?

(the highlight reels in slow motion show the dot on the ball very well).

Slow motion and at speed are very different.
Will bring this question up~
How many times have you/anybody
stood in front of a pitch coming in and saw that dot? I will say I've caught tremendously thousands of pitches and it is not something that I've encountered.
Not saying others don't encounter seeing it, just commenting think it is a rarity like a UFO. Or possibly some superhero special advantage .005% have ?‍.

* I do utilize seeing spin!

 

[ArmWhip]

providing a nice black target in the middle of a bright yellow ball.

I noticed the black circle on the back of number of bullet spin pitches. Since the horseshoes on a ball are not symmetrically opposed if you look at a bullet spin pitch and don't see the dot on the back that doesn't mean that it is showing to the hitter. It could be presenting to the hitter though, you would think that catchers would notice this and bring it to someone's attention, right Rad?

 

[CaledoniaDad]

I noticed the black circle on the back of number of bullet spin pitches. Since the horseshoes on a ball are not symmetrically opposed if you look at a bullet spin pitch and don't see the dot on the back that doesn't mean that it is showing to the hitter. It could be presenting to the hitter though, you would think that catchers would notice this and bring it to someone's attention, right Rad?

I like to sit behind the catcher at the D1 games I go to and lo and behold some of the slow motion video I took, you can see a black dot coming at the catcher.

These are from the 2019 WCWS, and highlights what I'm talking about. The pitcher did a good job on this riseball (by chance?) keeping the dot away from the hitter and catcher.