Arm extension after POC

[FP26]

So the correct joint articulations cannot be done unless the bat is flying full speed? No way to isolate this part of the swing and slow it down to "feel it"? No way to start at a pre contact position and mimic the downstream movements?

No version of this for hitting?

it seems like you sometimes just make up opinions to be argumentative without actually thinking about what you post.

One of the points being discussed is the backchaining from extension to point of contact. If we are looking at BM's demonstration, it would be from the point after IR (very end of the clip with his lower arm pointed at the catcher and his palm down) to the point of brush (or thereabouts...). BM's demonstration would be more applicable to backchaining POC to launch (when compared to the swing). At least IMO.

 

[JJsqueeze]

One of the points being discussed is the backchaining from extension to point of contact. If we are looking at BM's demonstration, it would be from the point after IR (very end of the clip with his lower arm pointed at the catcher and his palm down) to the point of brush (or thereabouts...). BM's demonstration would be more applicable to backchaining POC to launch (when compared to the swing). At least IMO.

agreed, but the idea that you have to maintain energy flow for a back chaining drill to be effective is what I am getting at. At the start of the lock it in drill there is no whip being release as in the full motion. Back chaining by definition disrupts the energy flow. So in the lock it in drill you still have to start it by overcoming an inertia that does not exist in the full motion. Conversely when you do something like a check swing drill, you are prematurely halting the energy flow. It's nature of the beast anytime you break a full motion into parts. If a kid is having trouble getting the feel of good contact through extension then starting at (or just before) contact and isolating that motion has validity. The fact that you have to overcome inertia with a push is not in and of itself a reason to throw the drill in the can.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

So the correct joint articulations cannot be done unless the bat is flying full speed? No way to isolate this part of the swing and slow it down to "feel it"? No way to start at a pre contact position and mimic the downstream movements?

No version of this for hitting?

it seems like you sometimes just make up opinions to be argumentative without actually thinking about what you post.

JJs, it seems like you are the one that sometimes doesn't think before you type.

What BM is demonstrating here is a backwards chain to roughly the 9-O'Clock position. He is not performing a backwards chain from 3-O'Clock to 6-O'Clock and then pushing to 3-O'Clock ... which would equate to CP's advocated drill.

BM is backwards chaining in an area that is inclusive of 'whip'. CP is advocating backwards chaining to 'contact' and proceeding from there ... a point where whip is fairly well underway. CP's recommendation applied to pitching would be to backwards chain to 6-O'Clock.

 

[JJsqueeze]

JJs, it seems like you are the one that sometimes doesn't think before you type.

What BM is demonstrating here is a backwards chain to roughly the 9-O'Clock position. He is not performing a backwards chain from 3-O'Clock to 6-O'Clock and then pushing to 3-O'Clock ... which would equate to CP's advocated drill.

BM is backwards chaining in an area that is inclusive of 'whip'. CP is advocating backwards chaining to 'contact' and proceeding from there ... a point where whip is fairly well underway. CP's recommendation applied to pitching would be to backwards chain to 6-O'Clock.

You are a moron. The ball is not supposed to be in the 9 o clock position in this drill, in what we refer to as the 9 o clock position in pitching, the upper arm has not stabilized against the rib cage yet. THE WHOLE POINT of this drill is to stabilize the arm against the rib cage to isolate the feeling of the I/R motion of the forearm. There is no whip in this drill at all. Whip requires upstream energy be available to transfer. For you to think there is a whipping action in this drill really shows a lack of understanding of how a body moves. It is simply a back chaining isolation drill that IGNORES the whip part of the pitch to isolate the feeling of the articulation required of the forearm and hand during the I/R release phase.

And the "energy flow" is completely disrupted by the drill. But I was not seeking an example that I thought was a perfect analogy to what Chris was suggesting, just a similar pitching drill, which this is. My point remains the same, that when you back chain a motion, you cannot do so without disrupting the energy flow so saying a back chaining drill is useless because it interferes or short circuits energy flow is basically saying you don't believe in back chaining.

I think some positions are better to start from than others for chaining drills, but who are you to criticize what anyone else is doing when you can't show a single shred of evidence that you have ever even swung a bat?

 

[chrispots]

What JJ said was "no VERSION of this for hitting?"

We all get it, Five - you don't like the idea of the push...

So I'll take a minute to try and articulate why I won't remove this portion from our back chaining...I don't expect to change your opinion this is more for the viewing public...

There are 2 pieces of "why I do the contact to extension" portion that is being lost here...

First point: What about the lead arm? This has gotten lost in this discussion. From pre-impact\contact to this position...is that a push leading from contact to extension with the left arm? I feel a pull. Do you not feel the triceps tendon flex from contact to extension? If there is arm-bar\lead arm breakdown (common in DBSF\leveling issue swings) this is a chance to correct it - for the hitter to feel the change as they feel the lead arm pull. DD2 has even commented on this feel in her lead elbow.

Second point: Feeling how both hands work through contact to extension...Even with pushing through contact I can still feel my right wrist unhinging. I can feel pull\flex in my left elbow, top of my wrist and on the lower pads of my middle and ring fingers as I move to extension...and I don't need momentum or energy flow to feel this.

CP

 

[Greenmonsters]

IMO, the arms, wrists, and hands don't actively cause extension (specifically, post-contact extension), rather they enable it to happen. Put in other words, they shouldn't be doing anything after the bat is launched to scrub energy transfer OR they don't need to do anything other than allow the flow energy to continue. The most efficient energy transfer requires getting the upstream part right and not screwing up the downstream by trying to do something other than the upstream sets you up to do. Said a different way, follow through happens, it isn't taught. The teaching that may be required is the elimination of the things that prevent it from happening. Somehow this makes sense to me. YMMV

 

[Eric F]

IMO, the arms, wrists, and hands don't actively cause extension (specifically, post-contact extension), rather they enable it to happen. Put in other words, they shouldn't be doing anything after the bat is launched to scrub energy transfer OR they don't need to do anything other than allow the flow energy to continue. The most efficient energy transfer requires getting the upstream part right and not screwing up the downstream by trying to do something other than the upstream sets you up to do. Said a different way, follow through happens, it isn't taught. The teaching that may be required is the elimination of the things that prevent it from happening. Somehow this makes sense to me. YMMV

I agree that extension isn't an active part of a good swing. What we are talking about is an approach to instructing hitters who are screwing up the ability for extension to happen correctly because of an incorrect understanding of proper extension movements. For those hitters, it does need to be taught.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

You are a moron. The ball is not supposed to be in the 9 o clock position in this drill, in what we refer to as the 9 o clock position in pitching, the upper arm has not stabilized against the rib cage yet. THE WHOLE POINT of this drill is to stabilize the arm against the rib cage to isolate the feeling of the I/R motion of the forearm. There is no whip in this drill at all. Whip requires upstream energy be available to transfer. For you to think there is a whipping action in this drill really shows a lack of understanding of how a body moves. It is simply a back chaining isolation drill that IGNORES the whip part of the pitch to isolate the feeling of the articulation required of the forearm and hand during the I/R release phase.

And the "energy flow" is completely disrupted by the drill. But I was not seeking an example that I thought was a perfect analogy to what Chris was suggesting, just a similar pitching drill, which this is. My point remains the same, that when you back chain a motion, you cannot do so without disrupting the energy flow so saying a back chaining drill is useless because it interferes or short circuits energy flow is basically saying you don't believe in back chaining.

I think some positions are better to start from than others for chaining drills, but who are you to criticize what anyone else is doing when you can't show a single shred of evidence that you have ever even swung a bat?

What a stooge you are JJs.

This here is a lot closer to 9-O'Clock than 6-O'Clock.

If you consider this a drill to be a disruption of the energy flow process then you are a bigger fool than I thought.

Keep spouting off there pal ... you're doing a terrific job of coming across as the moron.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I agree that extension isn't an active part of a good swing. What we are talking about is an approach to instructing hitters who are screwing up the ability for extension to happen correctly because of an incorrect understanding of proper extension movements. For those hitters, it does need to be taught.

I see ... so to clarify, you are talking about taking a kid that isn't able to swing to extension, and having them backchain from extension (for JJs, I'll add the reference of 3-O'Clock) back to contact (again, for JJs I'll add the reference of 6-O'Clock), pause, and then push to extension (and again, for JJs I'll add the reference of 3-O'Clock) ... and that clears it up the reason they weren't able to swing to extension. Hey ... if that works for you, and you are happy, then remain happy.

 

[JJsqueeze]

What a stooge you are JJs.

This here is a lot closer to 9-O'Clock than 6-O'Clock.

If you consider this a drill to be a disruption of the energy flow process then you are a bigger fool than I thought.

Keep spouting off there pal ... you're doing a terrific job of coming across as the moron.

as usual, words just fail me in describing the depths of you ability to hold on to falsehoods. Go ahead and coach your fantasy students to get into that position in the still in a full pitch. Buffoon. Better yet, go find a world class pitcher that gets there. And yet- it is a really effective drill. My point is that you cannot, by definition, break up a motion into parts without disrupting the energy flow. So using it as a criticism is stupid, I don't expect you to grasp that simple point since you have your hands full remembering to breath.