40 Feet AGAIN

[_MIA_]

"on a pitch which you throw like a fastball (eg you are not trying to impart any sort of spin to get the ball to curve or drop more or not drop as much)"

Ok fine you got me on that one. They are trying to spin their fastball as well. You want a cookie?

Point was (in response to Rad’s post) they can spin it the same way for a 2 seamer and a 4 seamer and get different movement and both can be called fastballs.

 

[Bonesaw]

Ok fine you got me on that one. They are trying to spin their fastball as well. You want a cookie?

Point was they can spin it the same way for a 2 seamer and a 4 seamer and get different movement and both can be called fastballs.

White chocolate and organic macadamia nuts please.

And I think a good two seamer might be more of a seam shift wake type pitch(hard to quantify this vs "pure" spin pitches) I just remember dustin may for the dodgers getting rocked(repeatedly?) in the playoffs a couple years ago vs the rays throwin a 98+ two seamer that LOOKED like it was moving alot. Maybe it wasnt really deceiving the batters brains. And then Ive seen videos of lance lynn humiliating mike trout(great fastball hitter) with a 95-96 mph 4 seamer.



But I think the most important line to draw out of this tangent is that bulletspin is less than ideal. Either throw a topspin pitch or throw a real riseball. I think the closest thing to bullet spin in the MLb is a hanging slider or hanging curveball.

 

[_MIA_]

And I think a good two seamer might be more of a seam shift wake type pitch(hard to quantify this vs "pure" spin pitches)

That is what they say. Here is a good baseball one (in keeping with Greg Maddux day on here..):





I'll buy the cookies to send to you but no promises my kids don't get to them first...

 

[radness]

different grips . When a pitch intentionally has a desired spin direction on it that directs the trajectory of the pitch that's why

As far as I understand, just like in baseball, you can change your grip ( 2 seam vs 4 seam) to get more movement on a pitch which you throw like a fastball (eg you are not trying to impart any sort of spin to get the ball to curve or drop more or not drop as much)

You are describing how to throw different moving pitches.

My comment is regarding what to call pitches that are intentionally moving.

In other words you can call everything that is thrown with speed a fastball but that does not describe it's spin trajectory.
*For that reason use descriptive words like Drop and curve.

Also fastpitch fastballs are often not the fastest pitch a pitcher throws.
So from that could debate /argue that calling something a fastball that's not actually faster is not correct either... and that is regardless of grip.
imo when something is called a fastball (in Fastpitch the sport I know so well) when something is called a fastball that is because it's not moving. just going straight forward not intending to break.
For this reason can throw a hard inside fastball that is just a straight location pitch and then back it up with a hard drop. the drop can be faster than the fastball even, but it also has required spin to create movement that creates the mix.
Two separate pitches that are equally fast.

Also Rises can be faster, even some pitchers through curves harder than fb.

 

[_MIA_]

You are talking about how to throw a moving breaking pitch.

My comment is regarding what to actually call a pitch that is intentionally breaking. Regardless of the grip a picture uses because they use different grips . When a pitch intentionally has a desired spin direction on it that directs the trajectory of the pitch that's why it would be called a drop... Or curve... Etc.

You are describing how to throw different moving pitches. My comment is regarding what to call pictures that are intentionally moving.

ie- the pitcher is intentionally using this grip and form of mechanic to make the pitch spin over the top so it will break down sharply = a dropbpitch has been called.


There are multiple different grips pitchers use to throw the same pitch trajectory with spin.
In other words they don't all use the same grip to throw their drop or their rise or their curved or their changeup. If you call the pitches by a particular grip it would not be the same for all the pitchers.
However by saying here throw a drop. That is an identify a bowl desired Spin and location equals put the spin on it so it drops sharply.

Yes I know what you are talking about…we have gone down this road before. As long as a catcher/pitcher/coach know the break on a two seam fastball there is no reason to reinvent the wheel and call it anything else. I don’t know a whole bunch about softball pitching but I assume there is some consensus about proper spin on one. That is your fastball. Same thing for a curve,drop, etc. The grip on the fastball adds an adjective to it..??‍

 

[radness]

Yes I know what you are talking about…

✔

 

[riseball]

You are describing how to throw different moving pitches.

My comment is regarding what to call pitches that are intentionally moving.

In other words you can call everything that is thrown with speed a fastball but that does not describe it's spin trajectory.
*For that reason use descriptive words like Drop and curve.

Also fastpitch fastballs are often not the fastest pitch a pitcher throws.
So from that could debate /argue that calling something a fastball that's not actually faster is not correct either... and that is regardless of grip.
imo when something is called a fastball (in Fastpitch the sport I know so well) when something is called a fastball that is because it's not moving. just going straight forward not intending to break.
For this reason can throw a hard inside fastball that is just a straight location pitch and then back it up with a hard drop. the drop can be faster than the fastball even, but it also has required spin to create movement that creates the mix.
Two separate pitches that are equally fast.

Also Rises can be faster, even some pitchers through curves harder than fb.

With all due respect to an accomplished catcher who understandably may have limited knowledge of high level pitching mechanics please consider the following:

1) A properly thrown fastball (IR) has a specific spin and significant movement. This is covered in great detail by Board Member and other experts in the Softball Pitching section of this site.

2) A properly thrown fastball (IR) should be a pitchers fastest pitch. If not the pitcher probably needs some work on their mechanics.

3) The idea that a pitch called a fastball is expected to have no movement is a myth from the white ball era that unfortunately still persists. The corollary to this is that high level pitchers never throw fastballs.

4) I am at a loss as to why any decent pitcher would intentionally throw a pitch that does not move.

5) I have yet to see a pitcher with correct mechanics throw the Riseball or Curve faster than their Fastball. If you examine the mechanics of the 3 pitches you will find that properly thrown this is not possible.

 

[radness]

With all due respect to an accomplished catcher who understandably may have limited knowledge of high level pitching mechanics please consider the following:

I have been to extensive amounts of pitching lessons with beginner to Elite pitchers with different instructors teaching.
I have extensive knowledge of the diversity of pitching mechanics and how they reach success.

With the accumulation of catching for these multiple different pitchers at lessons, as well catching for 24 years, adds having a diversity of talent to evaluate and gather my knowledge from. Definitely pitchers can throw other pitches as hard or faster than what is so-called a fastball straight pitch.

 

[radness]

2) A properly thrown fastball (IR) should be a pitchers fastest pitch. If not the pitcher probably needs some work on their mechanics.

Appears in your opinion, you have answered about why some pitchers fastball is not their fastest pitch.
And/or the pitcher has perfected their other pitches and they are faster because of it.
Especially drops

3) The idea that a pitch called a fastball is expected to have no movement is a myth from the white ball era that unfortunately still persists. The corollary to this is that high level pitchers never throw fastballs.

I was speaking to description. Not movement.

4) I am at a loss as to why any decent pitcher would intentionally throw a pitch that does not move.

Agree. At least a changeup hinders movement...can also create different angle/trajectory.

5) I have yet to see a pitcher with correct mechanics throw the Riseball or Curve faster than their Fastball. If you examine the mechanics of the 3 pitches you will find that properly thrown this is not possible.

And...to the point of what are correct mechanics that is ongoing debate/ discussions toward developmental process.
(Like hitting in the technical hitting forum. That's a shout out to the technical hitting forum ?)

Which not all pitching instructors teach the same thing and not all pitchers do the same thing and yet the diversity can still find success.

 

[Rolling Hard]

Jordyn Bahl says she uses 2 grips and throws 3 pitches. FB, DB and RB. Same grip for FB and DB. I thought you need 6 or 7 different pitches to compete! LOL