Cheating or Aggressive Base Running?

[marriard]

Saw it, originally saw it on my phone and it was blurry. Stated many times, don't care about the lack of appeal but the lack of integrity by the coach

Agreed

and inability of the ump not being able to insert himself/herself in the game when blatant cheating happened.

As long as you saying this is because of the rules and not the umpire themselves I am OK with this statement (even though I disagree with it). The umpire waiting for an appeal in this case is absolutely doing the right thing.

Missing the bag by 10 feet does not warrant an appeal the same way kid missing the inside of the bag by a few inches being aggressive.

Ok - here comes the issue because "Why not? And where is the determining distance? And how do I tell?"

So to solve this one very specific instance you would have to write a new rule specifically to handle this one idiot being an idiot.

No one wants to do that - the rule book is bloated already with needed (and some unneeded rules) plus there is at least 6 sanctioned rule books so even if you do write a rule, it may be years before it gets into other rule sets. .

The actual rule is OK as it stands - it handles the 99.99% occurrences fine. Should still handle this one fine (still confused on why there is no one appealing).

So what rule do I have to write? Change it or write a new one? For something that happens once every few years?

 

[FB Fool]

Had a college team that did it unintentionally, apparently, to my daughter who was catching. Went against her as a stolen base as the runner stayed at second even after the batter returned from 1st base to the batter's box.

i would have ruled it as indifference

 

[PapaBear]

Agreed



As long as you saying this is because of the rules and not the umpire themselves I am OK with this statement (even though I disagree with it). The umpire waiting for an appeal in this case is absolutely doing the right thing.



Ok - here comes the issue because "Why not? And where is the determining distance? And how do I tell?"

So to solve this one very specific instance you would have to write a new rule specifically to handle this one idiot being an idiot.

No one wants to do that - the rule book is bloated already with needed (and some unneeded rules) plus there is at least 6 sanctioned rule books so even if you do write a rule, it may be years before it gets into other rule sets. .

The actual rule is OK as it stands - it handles the 99.99% occurrences fine. Should still handle this one fine (still confused on why there is no one appealing).

So what rule do I have to write? Change it or write a new one? For something that happens once every few years?

I stated the why, no need to confuse this play with a runner cut the bag too short by a few inches. The fact that visual cheating by a coach/player cannot be addressed shows flaws in the rule. The rule is for those attempting a softball play at the bag, not cutting it off by 10 feet. Like anything else when it comes to a call by the umpire, call her out for blatant cheating. When the offensive coach comes to ask why...."judgement call". Always the safe answer by blue.

 

[MoJo]

Very, very few and they continue to write more and more out. Where it is, it is written specifically into the rule.

For example, I still have to judge whether a player moved intentionally into a hit by pitch and whether a runner tries to break up a double play. Some areas of malicious contact as well (though not all).

Again - these are specific situations written into the rules and there is often guidance and case book entries which instruct you in to how they want you to judge these calls.

Often people confuse 'judgement' and 'intent' in some cases.

But you could/would never make those decisions. Not 100% sure. Not without a confession but would bend to the "JK defense".

Lets see how many BS excuses can be made up in 60 sec......GO: I tripped, shoe was untied, off-balance, didn't see it, lighting was good, angle of the sun, the other player is at fault, to far away to really see it, kids being kids, coaches don't really teach that, coach didn't teach NOT to do that, natural movement, happened so fast, this age group makes mistakes, to much dust, no intent, not a mind reader, training says I have to be absolutely sure, I am new, never seen that before, you only have to pass ump test with 70%, the other rule book says, the case study says, my mentor from 50 years ago says, thats the other umps call, don't expect the best after a 6 game day, IF YOU WANT THAT CALL PONY UP FOR ANOTHER UMP

NEWS HEADLINE
Umpire admits.....
UMPIRES are IMPOTENT in judgement calls.

Meanwhile, 1000s of girls have been cheated by one bad apple

 

[NJZoo]

I was watching a friend's 14u game last week and a girl hit a bomb (no fences) for a 3 run home run. While going around the bases she missed 2nd base AND 3rd base - she didn't cut the base, she just stepped over it while running. I couldn't believe how obvious it was, but also how unnecessary it was - it was an easy home run. To miss 1 base is bad enough, but to miss 2 was something I have never seen before. The opposing coach had his pitcher appeal to 3rd base and the batter was called out. Game ended up tied and went to extra innings, so, it was a pretty big deal.

 

[MightyMO]

In this case…. IN THIS CASE…. It is not difficult to discern intent.

Anybody who says different is goofy.

In hindsight it is for sure. Heck, the coach has apparently admitted to teaching the "play". During the game how would you know if the coach instructed it or the player did it on their own?

Would there still be intent there? Of course. I'm just saying it would be hard to know who had the intent to cheat in the moment.

 

[Hillhouse]

"Win if you can, lose if you have to, but always always cheat."
- Bobby "the brain" Heenan of pro wrestling.

 

[Bullseye]

Ok - here comes the issue because "Why not? And where is the determining distance? And how do I tell?"

No one can tell you how to formulate your own judgment. And you cannot tell other people how to formulate their judgment.
If you were uncertain that didn't look like blatant cheating that is your judgment.
But a lot of other people saw blatant cheating. Stand your ground on your appeal call judgment if you must. Others don't need a confession by the coach to officiate that conduct.

 

[_MIA_]

But you could/would never make those decisions. Not 100% sure. Not without a confession but would bend to the "JK defense".

Lets see how many BS excuses can be made up in 60 sec......GO: I tripped, shoe was untied, off-balance, didn't see it, lighting was good, angle of the sun, the other player is at fault, to far away to really see it, kids being kids, coaches don't really teach that, coach didn't teach NOT to do that, natural movement, happened so fast, this age group makes mistakes, to much dust, no intent, not a mind reader, training says I have to be absolutely sure, I am new, never seen that before, you only have to pass ump test with 70%, the other rule book says, the case study says, my mentor from 50 years ago says, thats the other umps call, don't expect the best after a 6 game day, IF YOU WANT THAT CALL PONY UP FOR ANOTHER UMP

NEWS HEADLINE
Umpire admits.....
UMPIRES are IMPOTENT in judgement calls.

Meanwhile, 1000s of girls have been cheated by one bad apple

An umpire steal your bike when you were a kid?

 

[The Man In Blue]

Missing the bag by 10 feet does not warrant an appeal the same way kid missing the inside of the bag by a few inches being aggressive.

By rule, it does. There is nothing more that can be said on that. You can say you don't like it, that's fine. It still is.