I lived in Glendive for a brief time. It's so far away from everything you'd gladly cut down your travel distance any chance you get.
Cheating or Aggressive Base Running?
- Thread starter bmwbykrydr
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Top_Notch
Screwball
- Dec 18, 2014
- 523
- 63
I thought the bench players were responsible for watching missed bases by the runners. Do they not teach this anymore?
- Dec 11, 2010
- 4,730
- 113
Must be. It's not the umpires job, they already have too much on their hands already looking for diamond studs, loose helmet screws and imaginary bat rattles.
- Jul 2, 2013
- 383
- 43
My point wasn't that the coach shouldn't be investigated and punished. My point was that it's impossible for the ump to know intent while on the field.
- Dec 11, 2010
- 4,730
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In this case…. IN THIS CASE…. It is not difficult to discern intent.
Anybody who says different is goofy.
Anybody who says different is goofy.
radness
Possibilities & Opportunities!
- Dec 13, 2019
- 7,270
- 113
Well... it's not impossible because it is possible that girl has ran from second to third base before.
and the bases are numbered...
- May 29, 2015
- 3,841
- 113
Back from my worldly (and intergalactic, even!) travels in seeking out ancient and mystic forms of wisdom on this matter ... I'm going to post separate posts so we can try to keep comments directed at the specific issues.
@RADcatcher , I thought I posted this earlier, but maybe I did not. Here is the 2020 NFHS Softball rule on unsportsmanlike conduct: 3-6-13 (Rule 3, Players, Substitutes, and Coaches, Section 6 Bench and Field Conduct)
ART. 13 . . . Unsporting acts shall not be committed, including, but not limited to: a. use of words or actions to incite or try to incite spectators to demonstrate. b. use of profanity, intimidation and/or deceitful tactics, baiting or taunting; or NOTE: The NFHS disapproves of any form of taunting which is intended or designed to embarrass, ridicule or demean others under any circumstances, including race, religion, gender or national origin. c. behavior in any manner not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.
ART. 14 . . . Team personnel shall not charge an umpire.
ART. 15 . . . Arguing ball and strike calls or other umpire judgment calls is prohibited.
ART. 16 . . . Team personnel shall not deliberately throw bats, helmets or any other piece of equipment.
PENALTY: (Arts. 11 through 16) The umpire shall eject the offender from the game, unless the offense is judged to be of a minor nature. If minor, the umpire may warn the offender and eject if the offense is repeated (Art. 13). For coaches who violate, the umpire may restrict the offender to bench/dugout for the remainder of the game, or eject the offender.
Nowhere in there are we granted the authority to call the runner out sans appeal.
@RADcatcher , I thought I posted this earlier, but maybe I did not. Here is the 2020 NFHS Softball rule on unsportsmanlike conduct: 3-6-13 (Rule 3, Players, Substitutes, and Coaches, Section 6 Bench and Field Conduct)
ART. 13 . . . Unsporting acts shall not be committed, including, but not limited to: a. use of words or actions to incite or try to incite spectators to demonstrate. b. use of profanity, intimidation and/or deceitful tactics, baiting or taunting; or NOTE: The NFHS disapproves of any form of taunting which is intended or designed to embarrass, ridicule or demean others under any circumstances, including race, religion, gender or national origin. c. behavior in any manner not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.
ART. 14 . . . Team personnel shall not charge an umpire.
ART. 15 . . . Arguing ball and strike calls or other umpire judgment calls is prohibited.
ART. 16 . . . Team personnel shall not deliberately throw bats, helmets or any other piece of equipment.
PENALTY: (Arts. 11 through 16) The umpire shall eject the offender from the game, unless the offense is judged to be of a minor nature. If minor, the umpire may warn the offender and eject if the offense is repeated (Art. 13). For coaches who violate, the umpire may restrict the offender to bench/dugout for the remainder of the game, or eject the offender.
Nowhere in there are we granted the authority to call the runner out sans appeal.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but two Wrights make a plane.Two wrongs don't make a right (but three lefts do..)
- May 29, 2015
- 3,841
- 113
Regarding my vague recollections of an alternate reality ... or was it this reality? Portal travel will do that to you ...
NFHS has NOT officially weighed in on this issue (that I can find). Thank you to my brethren at an umpire website (can I plug them here?), here is what we do know ... granted much of this occurred on the baseball side of the world, but I think in issues of sportsmanship it is pretty safe to carry the principles over ...
Some STATE associations have observed this pattern of behavior in teams. Those state associations issued directives to umpires to eject in cases like this. In most instances, this cleaned up the behavior issue. Some of those state associations took it upon themselves (recognizing the gap in the rulebook) to also instruct umpires to call the runner out. THIS IS NOT SUPPORTED BY RULE, but by state association direction.
NFHS Baseball DOES have a case play and interpretations where the NFHS Baseball Executive Director (and the Rules Committee) stated the out can only be called on appeal, BUT a runner who intentionally misses to gain an advantage is NOT protected if they go back and retouch the base before the appeal. They created a "cheater's exception." This exception still does NOT allow the runner to be called out without a valid defensive appeal. The support for this is cited as 2011 Rule Interpretations #11 and #16 and 2020 case play 8.2.6 Situation H. (Side note: I have serious issues with the case play and interpretations because it is, IMO, not supported by rule. I don't disagree with what it is trying to achieve, but I feel it both fails to fix the problem AND is actually circumventing the rules.)
NCAA (baseball) holds the same conviction as NFHS. OBR (Major League Baseball rules) says the runner is entitled to retouch protection, just as he would having inadvertently missed the base or leaving early on a fly ball. None of them deal directly with the offense itself.
NFHS has NOT officially weighed in on this issue (that I can find). Thank you to my brethren at an umpire website (can I plug them here?), here is what we do know ... granted much of this occurred on the baseball side of the world, but I think in issues of sportsmanship it is pretty safe to carry the principles over ...
Some STATE associations have observed this pattern of behavior in teams. Those state associations issued directives to umpires to eject in cases like this. In most instances, this cleaned up the behavior issue. Some of those state associations took it upon themselves (recognizing the gap in the rulebook) to also instruct umpires to call the runner out. THIS IS NOT SUPPORTED BY RULE, but by state association direction.
NFHS Baseball DOES have a case play and interpretations where the NFHS Baseball Executive Director (and the Rules Committee) stated the out can only be called on appeal, BUT a runner who intentionally misses to gain an advantage is NOT protected if they go back and retouch the base before the appeal. They created a "cheater's exception." This exception still does NOT allow the runner to be called out without a valid defensive appeal. The support for this is cited as 2011 Rule Interpretations #11 and #16 and 2020 case play 8.2.6 Situation H. (Side note: I have serious issues with the case play and interpretations because it is, IMO, not supported by rule. I don't disagree with what it is trying to achieve, but I feel it both fails to fix the problem AND is actually circumventing the rules.)
NCAA (baseball) holds the same conviction as NFHS. OBR (Major League Baseball rules) says the runner is entitled to retouch protection, just as he would having inadvertently missed the base or leaving early on a fly ball. None of them deal directly with the offense itself.
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