I think maybe we have been missing what your DD is not doing right because the video is slow motion.After watching the video several times, her arm speed does not increase in the lower part of the circle.(just before she snaps)I think part of that has to do with what MTS says in post #10.Do you understand that snapping the ball means turning the hand from palm facing away from the hip to palm facing the body?
Time for another video...IR, the finish, and more questions from a confused dad
- Thread starter leerph
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Leerph, I think she does a lot really well. The few things I see to clean up are: 1) yes she does twist a little on the pitching rubber but it isn't extreme. Tell her to push then turn not turn and push. 2) she does over stride for her age and strength. She may not have the core strength to pull both sides of her body together at the bottom right now with such a long stride. Getting the stride foot down a few inches shorter and sooner may speed up the arm circle. 3) She needs to get the glove side pulling down in time with the ball side. Her glove seems to hang in mid air before and through release. 4) At the top she has the ball turned toward her head with her elbow pointing away from her body. The ball should be facing the catcher so the elbow faces 2nd not 1st. JMHO and hope it helps your DD.
- Jul 14, 2008
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Are you sure? Let's take another look..........
So now that we have that cleared up........Lets just say that amount that the hands turns over and the timing of it is reletive to both style and pitch selection/mechanics.......
It's not only possible, but likely for certain pitches........I/R starts in the shoulder (bicep), and continues down through for the forearm turning the palm from out to in........And eventually, a lot of the time, to facing downward, as indicated in Bill's clip above........And it's an indication of "finish"........And dissipation of energy being released AFTER the kinematic transfer through release is completed.........
This is what you said from your original post:
From her mechanics, I'd trust your own gut opinion on the problem. Internal Rotation mechanics do NOT include the hand "rolling over the ball"........If in fact she is doing that, it will rob her of velocity. The ball should be gone before her hand completes the turn over.
My advise for her would be a football drill. Get a small nerf football, and from 12:00/palm forward with the points of the ball toward 1st and 3rd, have her throw an underhand spiral while still allowing her hand to complete the I/R JUST AFTER the ball is gone.........This will train her to use the I/R to propel the ball forward WITHOUT turning it over........If she tumbles the football, she's holding on THROUGH the snap.........
Training the proper timing of the I/R release SHOULD produce an inward/downward spin........From a catchers view it looks like this for a RH'r, spinning toward the catchers LEFT KNEE while traveling in a straight line toward the target:
If the ball is spinning toward the catchers RIGHT KNEE.......She's holding on "through" the snap that occurs from kinetic transfer.......
In this clip, I'm working to spin the ball to the MY RIGHT and FORWARD.......Making sure I'm NOT turning it over.......
I wouldn't touch any other part of this young ladies mechanics.......She is very NEAR perfect for a 12yo.........
Boardmember: Thanks for the great reply and videos. It has really helped a lot. I do have just 1 observation and then a question:
First, as far as Hillhouse goes, thanks for the video of him actually throwing and ending up palm down. I haven't watched much if any video of him actually throwing in a game. My statement of him not turning his hand palm down comes from this video of him where he is giving a lesson:
Fastpitch Softball Pitching Lessons - Bill Hillhouse - YouTube
If you look at the 26:30 mark, he talks about making all the finish positions look the same for all the pitches and on all of them he has the palm facing up and in and close to his opposing shoulder. There are several more lessons he has on youtube where he is snapping them all in that manner i.e. finishing with his palm up and close to his left shoulder as opposed to palm down and facing out in front of him. I know he reads the board sometimes and maybe he or you can clear this up for me.
Here is another example at the 6 minute mark of this video lesson:
Pitching Clinic Part 2 - Bill Hillhouse - YouTube
2: Above you state that proper IR will produce a downward and INWARD rotation. If it is an INWARD rotation, doesn't that mean that it would be spinning INWARD toward the center mass/body of the pitcher. If so, that would have the axis tilted toward the catchers RIGHT knee, correct? Or are you referring to the pitchers hand having an inward rotation and not the ball having the inward rotation?
I am so confused and I hope my terminology and explanation make sense. Please chime in and clear this up for me. The statement that IR produces an inward rotation and the statement that the axis is pointed away from the pitchers center mass seem to be at odds with one another. Thanks in advance. I gotta go take some Advil now. My brain hurts! LOL
First, as far as Hillhouse goes, thanks for the video of him actually throwing and ending up palm down. I haven't watched much if any video of him actually throwing in a game. My statement of him not turning his hand palm down comes from this video of him where he is giving a lesson:
Fastpitch Softball Pitching Lessons - Bill Hillhouse - YouTube
If you look at the 26:30 mark, he talks about making all the finish positions look the same for all the pitches and on all of them he has the palm facing up and in and close to his opposing shoulder. There are several more lessons he has on youtube where he is snapping them all in that manner i.e. finishing with his palm up and close to his left shoulder as opposed to palm down and facing out in front of him. I know he reads the board sometimes and maybe he or you can clear this up for me.
Here is another example at the 6 minute mark of this video lesson:
Pitching Clinic Part 2 - Bill Hillhouse - YouTube
2: Above you state that proper IR will produce a downward and INWARD rotation. If it is an INWARD rotation, doesn't that mean that it would be spinning INWARD toward the center mass/body of the pitcher. If so, that would have the axis tilted toward the catchers RIGHT knee, correct? Or are you referring to the pitchers hand having an inward rotation and not the ball having the inward rotation?
I am so confused and I hope my terminology and explanation make sense. Please chime in and clear this up for me. The statement that IR produces an inward rotation and the statement that the axis is pointed away from the pitchers center mass seem to be at odds with one another. Thanks in advance. I gotta go take some Advil now. My brain hurts! LOL
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- Jul 14, 2008
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leerph, let me address #2 first because it concerns what I talk about, and you've asked a very good question that needs clarification. I can understand the terminology confusion. When I discuss human bio-mechanics, the references are as they refer to the body. I.E. I/R refers in internal rotation as an articulation of the human body.
When I discuss the ball......I.E. Spins/Direction.......It refers to the spin of the ball relative to the batter as it approaches the plate/catcher...........Inward/Downward rotation "of the ball" would have it spinning toward the catchers left knee........INWARD toward the batter and downward toward the ground........
Now to Bill's videos/comments about every pitch finishing at the oppo shoulder......Palm up.........I choose not to debate the point for this reason: The idea of finishing every pitch in the same spot at the left shoulder promotes IMO proper body alignment at release, IE closed from the batter to some degree. IF you finish at the oppo shoulder and are square to the plate at release.........You will likely throw the ball at the dugout! IOW, you must be closed to some degree at release to accomplish the oppo shoulder finish........Which is a GOOD thing........
I choose to focus on the same thing, only refer to it as across the mid-line, regardless of the height of the hand at completion........(shoulder height).........I think "at the oppo shoulder" promotes un-natural movement on many pitches. And infact, reminds me sometimes of HE pitchers who all finish up at the throwing side shoulder........IMO......There is no "cookie cutter" way to be the best you can be..........There are absolutes.......And there is style.......IMO, the oppo shoulder finish is a style point to achieve certain positive bio-mechanical results......
I've never seen a pitcher who finishes at exactly the same spot for EVERY PITCH, regardless of the concept.......
I don't agree with "palm up on all pitches" because it doesn't "fit" with total concept of I/R with regard to many pitches outside of rise/screw.......
When I discuss the ball......I.E. Spins/Direction.......It refers to the spin of the ball relative to the batter as it approaches the plate/catcher...........Inward/Downward rotation "of the ball" would have it spinning toward the catchers left knee........INWARD toward the batter and downward toward the ground........
Now to Bill's videos/comments about every pitch finishing at the oppo shoulder......Palm up.........I choose not to debate the point for this reason: The idea of finishing every pitch in the same spot at the left shoulder promotes IMO proper body alignment at release, IE closed from the batter to some degree. IF you finish at the oppo shoulder and are square to the plate at release.........You will likely throw the ball at the dugout! IOW, you must be closed to some degree at release to accomplish the oppo shoulder finish........Which is a GOOD thing........
I choose to focus on the same thing, only refer to it as across the mid-line, regardless of the height of the hand at completion........(shoulder height).........I think "at the oppo shoulder" promotes un-natural movement on many pitches. And infact, reminds me sometimes of HE pitchers who all finish up at the throwing side shoulder........IMO......There is no "cookie cutter" way to be the best you can be..........There are absolutes.......And there is style.......IMO, the oppo shoulder finish is a style point to achieve certain positive bio-mechanical results......
I've never seen a pitcher who finishes at exactly the same spot for EVERY PITCH, regardless of the concept.......
I don't agree with "palm up on all pitches" because it doesn't "fit" with total concept of I/R with regard to many pitches outside of rise/screw.......
BM...should the football have a nice spiral in that drill? I do want to point out to leerph in case he missed it that his dd's spin should spin downward and outward towards the catcher's right knee since she is a lefty.
I've been trying to catch you on here but I'm not sure if you get emails when someone posts to a thread you have posted on. Anyway, I sent you a PM and if you have time to look at it I would appreciate it. Maybe you just don't want to reply and that's fine too...no biggie!
I've been trying to catch you on here but I'm not sure if you get emails when someone posts to a thread you have posted on. Anyway, I sent you a PM and if you have time to look at it I would appreciate it. Maybe you just don't want to reply and that's fine too...no biggie!
- Jul 14, 2008
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Usually a spiral with the tip pointed slightly upward.......
True Dat! Good call...........
Sorry DRC! I don't ignore PM's as a rule. I do sometimes read them at a time when I don't have the time to respond, and then forget to revisit them the next time I log on. I think it would be great if the PM feature would have a "tickler" that reminds you that there are unresponded PM's, unless you make them as "no-reponse intended" by checking a box or something...........
Regardless, I did go back and respond this evening!
- Jan 25, 2011
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I'm not going to put words in Hillhouse's mouth, these are mine, as far as finishing to the non-throwing shoulder, I have taken that as more of away of fixing a bad habbit. Not finish with a relaxed arm, or coming from a hello elbow style. It helps for a new pitcher to feel the arm whip over exaggerate the finish to the opposite shoulder, once they feel it and understand the concept of whipping the arm. The finish to the non-throwing shoulder would stop at that point. Sometimes you have to exaggerate things to get the whole feeling. Just IMO, not Bills.
