Pitching Technique Question HE -> IR

[Fastpitchdadnc]

You really should switch coaches while it's early. Switching to IR with whip is time consuming. She'll need to stop pitching games while converting because she'll either go right back to HE or she'll throw everything behind the batter (if she's a RHP).

On a positive note, she probably already internally rotates, even if she was taught to turn the ball around at 11:00. Likeky all she'll need is whip. What you'll need to be focusing on it having her keep the ball palm-downish on the upswing and palm up with some bend in the arm by 11:00. Way easier said than done. Lots of backchain from 7, 9, and 10-11 o'clock and baby walk-through pitches. I've found while helping my daughter convert that putting full drive into the mechanics too early is a recipe for reverting.

It'll certainly go more quickly if she's willing to work 3x per week but that's a tough sell for a kid. My daughter is 15 and it's a miracle if I can get her out there 3x in a week.

Thanks! May daughter currently loves pitching so she does try to pitch nearly everyday, although sometimes other events don’t allow that to happen. Thank you for the advice!

 

[PJR202]

Thanks! May daughter currently loves pitching so she does try to pitch nearly everyday, although sometimes other events don’t allow that to happen. Thank you for the advice!

If she commits that much time to it, she can switch. I would recommend a few months of no games while she does it. Her accuracy will nosedive. Actually it'll dive low and inside. Haha.

 

[Fastpitchdadnc]

If she commits that much time to it, she can switch. I would recommend a few months of no games while she does it. Her accuracy will nosedive. Actually it'll dive low and inside. Haha.

She won’t have any games until spring sometime. I’m hoping this is enough time to get her back on the mound next season.

 

[Hillhouse]

My daughter, currently 8, has been taking pitching lessons and pitching since about May this year. She can throw strikes 7 of 10 pitches but doesn’t have much velocity (velocity isn’t a big concern as long as accuracy is on) . We are beginning to work on pushing off with more power and maintaining her pitching form. She has no issues as of now pitching.

She has been learning hello elbow style and I am wondering if we should be looking into a coach that teaches internal rotation?

The reason I am curious is because a few months ago we had to drill into her to not rotate her wrist, as this is her natural motion, when she releases at 6 o clock and also to not cross her body after release. After researching internal rotation these both appear to be natural movements of IR. We recently met another coach in a camping trip and he mentioned we need to find the pitchng style that suits her best. After this discussion I began to look into IR. I am torn on what to do for her trying to keep her most successful outcome in mind. I’ve read that most HE pitchers transition to IR at some point in their career and would rather do that sooner than later if that’s the case. Thank you in advance for any input suggested!

Sir, I'm going to address these individually with each paragraph relating the the paragraphs you wrote.

#1. "no issues as of now with pitching". This is the most common problems the parents of young pitchers have, but to be clear I'm not jumping to the conclusion that this is how you feel, it's just a generalization. It's easy to believe that when your daughter is successful when young, she'll be successful when older. And this is a trap that SOOO many fall into. And by the time you realize that others have caught up to her or passed her buy, you have multiple years of muscle memory built in HE mechanics that you'll have to overcome. Assuming you were not a softball pitcher yourself, you rely on the expertise of your coach to know what they're doing. Keep in mind, you have 2 fundamental elements at play: Absolutes and Styles. Pitching coach great Doug Gillis coined that phrase. These are self explanatory. Absolutes are what she HAS to do because of how the human body is designed to move. Styles are what we choose to do. The best example of this can be seen on movement pitches: riseball for example. There's multiple grips for this pitch (your style choice) but the spin of the ball has to be correct (the absolute). Some grips have more advantages than others but that doesn't make one wrong, especially if they are getting correct rotation. WHERE COACHES GO WRONG is teaching their own style as though it's an absolute. This issue is the same with hitting coaches, various styles but the best all have the same absolutes for the most part. However, learning the difference between pitching styles and absolutes can be tricky. Especially if she's striking out 16 per game at 10u. It becomes so easy to fall into the trap of believing you're on the right path. But again, success at 10 doesn't mean success at 18.

I have said it before, I don't agree with a lot of things I read on here and other places but, the one thing I can promise you is: everyone here loves softball and softball pitching. I do not believe anyone here would purposely give someone bad info and sabotage a young pitcher and/or their parent who's also wanting to learn. I'd advise you to post clips of your kid periodically and the people here can tell you if she's throwing with HE stuff or not. I don't think there are any HE style coaches on this forum, or if there are any, they don't speak up very often. So, with that said, if you now know HE pitching to be wrong (which I believe it mostly is wrong and will limit her successes later) then every time you let your kid pitch that way you're only reinforcing muscle memory that you ultimately will have to change. The sooner you switch the better. There's no glory in being the world's best pitcher 8u, she needs to be setting herself up long term to be the best at 18u.

#2. I believe I answered this already. Assuming your screenname indicates you're from North Carolina, I'm confident someone here will have a recommendation for a new coach that isn't a HE coach. Be prepared that you may have to travel for this. Every family has a different idea of what's too far to travel for lessons. Some will fly from Hawaii to Pennsylvania to work with a particular coach, while others won't drive across town because it's too far. It's a mistake to think all coaches are the same and their info is all the same. I realize that not everyone has the resources, the time, and ability to travel long distances to see a pitching coach. So be sure to do your homework when selecting a coach. Use common sense first and foremost. Here's an example: when I get a new student, most of the time they start off by doing wrist flips. I'll always ask them why they are doing those, and 99% of the time I get a blank stare back at me because they don't know why they're doing it, the coach told them to. So, when I explain why I don't want her to do those the overwhelming majority of dads will say "I never understood what it was for either, it never made sense to me" So there you go, if something doesn't make sense to you, the odds are it's probably something you need to look into more and ask questions about.

#3. Not so much on this board but, if you belong to other softball pitching groups and Facebook groups, etc. a common theme many people say is how there isn't right and wrong. They'll tell you to find the "style that works best for your kid". And to a degree that's correct. I'd modify that and say you have to find a coach that works best with your kid. I believe many of these people confuse the whole "absolutes and styles" thing. There's lots of pitching "styles" out there but when you look at the best pitchers, they all have the same absolutes. So it goes full circle, knowing the difference between those 2 things is essential. At the end of the day, you could find a coach who is the greatest person alive. They donate to charity. Give lessons for free. They are funny. You become friends outside of the softball coaching world. Etc. etc. etc. But if the coach is teaching you things which contradict the absolutes needed in pitching, then your kid is going to have an even bigger uphill battle to the top. In 99.99999% of the time, everyone is legitimately trying their best. I don't know of anyone who purposely tries to sabotage a kid's pitching career. But, being a really nice person doesn't guarantee that what they're teaching is going to help your kid.

Do your homework on a new coach. Ask questions. If the coach is a former (or current) softball pitcher, ask them to demonstrate things and see if words/actions are the same. I'm sure this folks on this board will have good ideas of things to ask a new coach, to see if he/she knows what they're talking about or not. The first question I'd ask is: Do you follow HE pitching or "IR"? If they don't know the difference, I'd say that'd be my first red flag. It's not an automatic disqualification if they don't know the difference but, it also means they probably aren't continuing to learn. Nobody knows everything about pitching and coaches should always be learning too.

Use this forum as a sounding board for your questions, this is probably the best place online to find pitching info.

 

[Fastpitchdadnc]

Sir, I'm going to address these individually with each paragraph relating the the paragraphs you wrote.

#1. "no issues as of now with pitching". This is the most common problems the parents of young pitchers have, but to be clear I'm not jumping to the conclusion that this is how you feel, it's just a generalization. It's easy to believe that when your daughter is successful when young, she'll be successful when older. And this is a trap that SOOO many fall into. And by the time you realize that others have caught up to her or passed her buy, you have multiple years of muscle memory built in HE mechanics that you'll have to overcome. Assuming you were not a softball pitcher yourself, you rely on the expertise of your coach to know what they're doing. Keep in mind, you have 2 fundamental elements at play: Absolutes and Styles. Pitching coach great Doug Gillis coined that phrase. These are self explanatory. Absolutes are what she HAS to do because of how the human body is designed to move. Styles are what we choose to do. The best example of this can be seen on movement pitches: riseball for example. There's multiple grips for this pitch (your style choice) but the spin of the ball has to be correct (the absolute). Some grips have more advantages than others but that doesn't make one wrong, especially if they are getting correct rotation. WHERE COACHES GO WRONG is teaching their own style as though it's an absolute. This issue is the same with hitting coaches, various styles but the best all have the same absolutes for the most part. However, learning the difference between pitching styles and absolutes can be tricky. Especially if she's striking out 16 per game at 10u. It becomes so easy to fall into the trap of believing you're on the right path. But again, success at 10 doesn't mean success at 18.

I have said it before, I don't agree with a lot of things I read on here and other places but, the one thing I can promise you is: everyone here loves softball and softball pitching. I do not believe anyone here would purposely give someone bad info and sabotage a young pitcher and/or their parent who's also wanting to learn. I'd advise you to post clips of your kid periodically and the people here can tell you if she's throwing with HE stuff or not. I don't think there are any HE style coaches on this forum, or if there are any, they don't speak up very often. So, with that said, if you now know HE pitching to be wrong (which I believe it mostly is wrong and will limit her successes later) then every time you let your kid pitch that way you're only reinforcing muscle memory that you ultimately will have to change. The sooner you switch the better. There's no glory in being the world's best pitcher 8u, she needs to be setting herself up long term to be the best at 18u.

#2. I believe I answered this already. Assuming your screenname indicates you're from North Carolina, I'm confident someone here will have a recommendation for a new coach that isn't a HE coach. Be prepared that you may have to travel for this. Every family has a different idea of what's too far to travel for lessons. Some will fly from Hawaii to Pennsylvania to work with a particular coach, while others won't drive across town because it's too far. It's a mistake to think all coaches are the same and their info is all the same. I realize that not everyone has the resources, the time, and ability to travel long distances to see a pitching coach. So be sure to do your homework when selecting a coach. Use common sense first and foremost. Here's an example: when I get a new student, most of the time they start off by doing wrist flips. I'll always ask them why they are doing those, and 99% of the time I get a blank stare back at me because they don't know why they're doing it, the coach told them to. So, when I explain why I don't want her to do those the overwhelming majority of dads will say "I never understood what it was for either, it never made sense to me" So there you go, if something doesn't make sense to you, the odds are it's probably something you need to look into more and ask questions about.

#3. Not so much on this board but, if you belong to other softball pitching groups and Facebook groups, etc. a common theme many people say is how there isn't right and wrong. They'll tell you to find the "style that works best for your kid". And to a degree that's correct. I'd modify that and say you have to find a coach that works best with your kid. I believe many of these people confuse the whole "absolutes and styles" thing. There's lots of pitching "styles" out there but when you look at the best pitchers, they all have the same absolutes. So it goes full circle, knowing the difference between those 2 things is essential. At the end of the day, you could find a coach who is the greatest person alive. They donate to charity. Give lessons for free. They are funny. You become friends outside of the softball coaching world. Etc. etc. etc. But if the coach is teaching you things which contradict the absolutes needed in pitching, then your kid is going to have an even bigger uphill battle to the top. In 99.99999% of the time, everyone is legitimately trying their best. I don't know of anyone who purposely tries to sabotage a kid's pitching career. But, being a really nice person doesn't guarantee that what they're teaching is going to help your kid.

Do your homework on a new coach. Ask questions. If the coach is a former (or current) softball pitcher, ask them to demonstrate things and see if words/actions are the same. I'm sure this folks on this board will have good ideas of things to ask a new coach, to see if he/she knows what they're talking about or not. The first question I'd ask is: Do you follow HE pitching or "IR"? If they don't know the difference, I'd say that'd be my first red flag. It's not an automatic disqualification if they don't know the difference but, it also means they probably aren't continuing to learn. Nobody knows everything about pitching and coaches should always be learning too.

Use this forum as a sounding board for your questions, this is probably the best place online to find pitching info.

Thank you so much for all this information. As you stated I’m not trying to make a 8 or 10u award winning pitcher. But would rather set her up for success in the long run should she stick it out. Just use the younger years to build a strong foundation to build on as she gets older.

 

[Rolling Hard]

Just ask what position should her arm /hand be at 9 o clock. That will tell you all you need to know

 

[Dabears17]

THE HSA WAY PITCHING

www.hsasoftball.org

 

[ArmWhip]

ArmWhip, can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure what part of the HE motion you find "more natural". Are you suggesting letting her continue with this and then make a change later? If so, when would the change happen? How many years of HE training should a pitcher do before trying to unlearn all of that for the whole "IR" thing?

When I say HE is more natural what I mean is that all the beginning pitchers that I see are using HE (bowling). Give a kid a ball and ask them to pitch underhand and they will bowl. This is the last sentence in my post.

And don't expect her to throw strikes with IR like she does now, that's the big drawback to making the change, but down the road when she's mastered it you will be glad that you did.

 

[Shickadelio]

She won’t have any games until spring sometime. I’m hoping this is enough time to get her back on the mound next season.

I will hop in to add that, imo, you're doing the smartest thing by looking for a new coach now.

Same boat as you! DD started HE and after months of frustration and no progress, switched to IR right before Fall Ball. Her coach went on an emergency leave and my DD just had to stop pitching because she was an absolute jumbled mess - fighting what was ingrained from HE and what she really wanted to try from IR lessons. Love my DD to pieces but stopping for the season was best to actually save her confidence long-term.

Even if her coach hadn't gone on leave, I absolutely wish I'd been brave enough to break it off with our old HE coach and make the switch much earlier pre-Fall Ball. Best of luck to you both!

 

[daywalkerdad]

She is young now, get the form correct as soon as you can.
As she goes on never sacrifice the future for short term success.

Make sure she is throwing her max velo on every pitch. I would not be worried if she is not the fastest thrower, but would be concerned if she slows down to be accurate.

In a perfect world at this age (in my opinion) lots of drills, a little bullpen, limited pitching in games. Bad habits can form in games. However, no kid is going to keep working boring stuff with no fun stuff.