Opposite or same direction?

[ArmWhip]

I can understand the application of a little force at the initiation of the swing to keep the barrel from getting left behind and 'wrapped'. I also understand that there must be some force applied to the handle to maintain the proper arc of the bat otherwise the barrel, being heavier, will want to track inside the hand path. At some point centrifugal force takes over and continual application of force to the barrel is no longer necessary. But I have always thought that these things were largely instinctive and did not have to be emphasized unless there was an obvious flaw. In some ways it's like not telling a hitter to start with the hips unless you see a problem, if you tell them 'hips first' you risk them disconnecting and spinning.

Overall, for me I guess it's more a question of when you cease applying pressure to the handle.

A similar question is; For the outside pitch, with the top hand, do you push the bat out there or release it?

 

[RayR]

Arm - you have it figured out. Without the initial force the rest of the swing is like trying to recover lost ground. Many people have not felt an easy release so this "recovery" swing feels normal to them. It feels normal to not apply some pressure to the bat initially.

But I have always thought that these things were largely instinctive and did not have to be emphasized unless there was an obvious flaw.

I have yet to come across a swing without an obvious flaw - (someone who is coming to me for lessons).

A similar question is; For the outside pitch, with the top hand, do you push the bat out there or release it?

IMO - the hand path dictates everything. That and an intuitive sense of how the barrel should be delivered.

 

[RayR]

Tom - yeah he stinks...

Would you say that initially the "pronation" and "supination" cancel each other out?

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

A similar question is; For the outside pitch, with the top hand, do you push the bat out there or release it?

Virtually no change with respect to swing initiation for an outside pitch. The top hand still serves the same function ... the barrel should still be 'turned' to contact.

 

[tom.guerry]

the hand/upper body action sequence starts the same but continues/loads around and back more for outside which develops a different direction of top hand pull and a more stretched lead arm/scap/longer swing radius/higher load/inertia/resistance to rotation. more handle torque depletes torso stretch and fire sooner for more bat turn and less torso turn for deeper contact further out for outside location. See:

Bat Speed -- Baseball Hitting Forum

load back/around slightly more/longer when outside location is recognized.

 

[ArmWhip]

I have spent some time swinging at the heavy bag trying to apply the appropriate hand torque action to 'turn the barrel'. I am having flashbacks to when I was seriously trying to lower my handicap and reading every golf book and magazine I could get my hands on. I never took a lesson but I was constantly trying different swing keys and observing my own swing action . That's what this hand torque thing is, another swing key. I know my batting swing very well, I have spent a lot of time observing it on video tape and in the sliding glass door in my living room at night which acts as a big mirror, I'm also sure that this is a consequence of having spent thousands of hours on the practice tee working with 'how it feels'.

When I try to 'turn the barrel' with some hand torque I end up with a wrist roll release into contact every time. In my normal swing I am able to start with a 90 degree angle between my forearm and the bat and maintain this angle into release. I know that in order to do this I have to apply some torque to the handle to keep the bat from wrapping and getting left behind my back, but I have never thought about it or paid any attention to it until now, it's just there as a natural response to swinging the bat. When I deliberately try to turn the barrel I apply extra force and bat ends up releasing early. It makes my swing right hand dominate and actually shortens my radius, a natural consequence of a wrist roll. So for me 'turning the barrel' is a swing tip or key that doesn't work, in fact it interferes with what is a natural, automatic part of my swing sequence. For someone else with a wrapping problem 'turning the barrel' may be an appropriate swing key. I don't think that it's something that I will be bringing to my player's attention unless they have such a problem, why try to fix something which ain't broke?

 

[RayR]

Arm - I am not talking about torquing the barrel. I am not talking about perpendicular force on the bat. I agree with your findings using a "torque" technique.

I am simply talking about opposing longitudinal forces on the bat to keep it in line so it can receive angular momentum. Many players probably do this naturally and do not have to think about it.

This is for any player that is not keeping the bat in line. They can dump, flatten, wrap, drop the hands, throw the hands, cast, etc to take the bat off line...

But, thanks for giving it a shot.

 

[BoardMember]

I know that in order to do this I have to apply some torque to the handle to keep the bat from wrapping and getting left behind my back, but I have never thought about it or paid any attention to it until now..........

Well there ya go..........Now you have another "tool in the box" to help kids understand that getting the barrel to the ball properly without "wrapping or leaving it behind" takes more then just "swinging it"...........

 

[Wellphyt]

Notice the direction the barrel is pointing in all of these hitters. It is not towards the catcher. Also notice that the back elbow is slotted and the front forearm is max up off the chest. This position is obtained prior to any significant upper torso rotation. This is my definition of the hands getting flat early. Which should not be confused with the palm up-palm down position.

IMO, the direction of torque on the handle needs to be applied in a way to achieve this position. It's fairly easy to figure out by swinging a bat in front of a mirror.


The question was asked; who starts their swing as shown on the left hand side of the illustration below?


My experience has been that most young FP players start their swing this way. It's the classic "hold the hands high and take the hands to the ball" approach commonly taught in FP. However I also see this bat initiation movement with girls who utilize a flatter handset where the barrel taps the pony tail area. I actually believe that the "pony tail" handset makes it more likely that the bat will be initiated in this manner because the hands are already close to flat and the girls are predisposed to just turning into the pitch as the back elbow simply adducts. Anytime the back elbow slots down by simple adduction, the hands will always prematurely move towards the pitcher. This forward movement of the hands is missed by many because the shoulders are turning at the same time. Notice in the first image I posted how the hands of all the hitters remain up and back at the rear armpit.

I always teach the girls that there are three major components to the upper body. 1.) Flattening the hands, 2) Lateral shoulder tilt, 3) Upper torso rotation. Once understood it becomes a matter of doing all three movements in sync and seemlessly. Which is where I'm placing more of my emphasis lately. The one big revelation I've had over the past year is that a lot of issues are caused by poor synchronization.

 

[RayR]

Can't leave out how starting the swing with an offset of the hips to shoulders helps set up turning the barrel. In each of the hitters posted by Wellphyt check out the hip to shoulder offset.