Well, here it is...

[_MIA_]

People who detour threads should be tarred and feathered and then banned....

 

[Jeffrey]

Not all leaps are created equal. Leaving replant out of this for now, there are two types of leaping or detachment I see in lessons:

1. Typically seen in the younger students is the leap the comes from/with the forced opening of the hips and drag foot and knee pointing behind the pitcher often followed by a heel drop and complete collapse of the plant leg as the torso continues forward too far. This is an example of leaping being or leading to “bad mechanics.”

2. See Jordy Bahl. Detachment due to literally leaping out of the circle. This is an example of leaping coming from extreme athleticism. It will be interesting to see how she holds up in the long run with the pounding her lower half takes.

Since I try to teach my students that having their hips in the right position at release is important I wouldn’t teach them to stride so far and high they lose control of their hips. Usually a girl who can control her hips doesn’t leap so badly it gets called. And yes, elite throwing mechanics come with opening and closing of the hips and all that, but when they are young they tend to force them open too far, especially when leaping.

 

[Hillhouse]

Maybe @Hillhouse can espouse upon this but it seems to me that mens pitching underwent this same change years ago(like 90's? Or later?). Even in the 2000's and 2010's there were top knotch mens pitchers using "ncaa" mechanics. Like manley and Kirkpatrick. I believe Hillhouse pitched both ways. I'm not sure how it effects the numbers/performance.

My opinion as an old fat guy is that its easier to throw using crow hops.

I want to say the pitching rule change in men's happened about 1984 or 85. I can remember pitching in the boy's state championship (yes there used to be such a thing!!!) in '85 and I didn't have to keep 2 feet on the rubber. But to be clear, that was the rule change: 1 foot on the rubber instead of 2. The jumping and leaping started to come into effect slowly as pitchers began to be overcome with the new age bats and balls.

Men's pitchers were allowed to "leap" before females but, "crow hopping" has never been legal. As I've said multiple times on multiple forums, the reality is the men do not care about crow hopping. Nobody is going to whine and complain about the pitcher's jump because their own pitcher is likely doing the same thing. The philosophy, right or wrong, is: no matter how it's thrown, the ball has to cross the plate so shut up and hit it. There still plenty of old timers who cannot wrap their heads around the pitching of today's men's game and call it an abomination. They are stuck in the 1970's with pitching styles but don't seem to realize how much the equipment and balls of today make the 1970's pitching style impossible today. So, crow hopping still is not legal under any organization that I am aware of but, umpires have willful blindness about it and the men's teams do not care.

Also, it wasn't until 2019 (I think) when ASA/USA changed the girl's pitching rule to allow 1 foot on the rubber. Now with allowing the leap inside of the pitch, for the first time since the early 1980's the pitching rules are the same for both genders. From '84-2019, the USA was the only country in the world that had different pitching rules for different genders. Every other country in the world used the ISF (WBSC) pitching rule, which is one reason the USA men's team began to suffer in international competition. Pitchers learning how to pitch with 1 foot on the rubber and jumping were illegal in International ball and to say its difficult to pitch one way, then be forced into the restrictive 2 feet on the rubber and stay on the ground was an understatement. I had never pitched with 2 feet on the rubber until I landed in New Zealand October of 1990. It was like re-learning how to pitch all over again.

Someone else asked about injuries. Yes, I had a knee surgery for Patellar tendonitis. And I experience my first issue with my back pain when I was 19, herniated disc in the lower left side. Since then the back pain would come and go until about 2005-ish, when it became something that wouldn't go away. I began getting shots in my back for pain control. And back then a doctor would send you home with a script for 180 Percocet per month. Now days I'm not even sure cancer patients get 180 painkillers! But to be fair, I really wasn't taking good care of myself. I wasn't in the gym each day, I wasn't stretching like I should have, etc. etc. I fully believe the knee problems occurred from pitching in NZ during the winters. Pitchers don't throw from a rubber there, there is a large hard rubber mat used in the pitcher's circle. The mats were used to keep field maintenance to a minimum. And at the time, NZ only had a hand full of actual softball fields despite being so dominant on the world stage. NZ is such a small country with small land mass that many games are played on all grass fields which are also used for soccer, cricket, rugby, etc. but to avoid pitcher tearing up holes in the ground, they used pitcher mats similar to what indoor facilities have. The constant pounding on those is harder than landing on the ground and patellar tendonitis was quite common. While I'm sure softball didn't help, I don't know if my back issues were from that or just genetics. Society is quick to think injuries happen because of bad mechanics and such but, sometimes it's just bad genetics.

I don't know how or why that coach would say leaping is bad mechanics and leads to injuries... where's the data to prove that? For ever Bill Hillhouse who had a knee surgery, theres 20 guys who didn't. So, where's the proof? What about hurdlers in track, is that leading to injuries too? Sounds like this is something the coach doesn't want to teach, which is their right. But, I'm not sure he/she is coming at this with facts, just opinion.

 

[Vertigo]

I want to say the pitching rule change in men's happened about 1984 or 85. I can remember pitching in the boy's state championship (yes there used to be such a thing!!!) in '85 and I didn't have to keep 2 feet on the rubber. But to be clear, that was the rule change: 1 foot on the rubber instead of 2. The jumping and leaping started to come into effect slowly as pitchers began to be overcome with the new age bats and balls.

Men's pitchers were allowed to "leap" before females but, "crow hopping" has never been legal. As I've said multiple times on multiple forums, the reality is the men do not care about crow hopping. Nobody is going to whine and complain about the pitcher's jump because their own pitcher is likely doing the same thing. The philosophy, right or wrong, is: no matter how it's thrown, the ball has to cross the plate so shut up and hit it. There still plenty of old timers who cannot wrap their heads around the pitching of today's men's game and call it an abomination. They are stuck in the 1970's with pitching styles but don't seem to realize how much the equipment and balls of today make the 1970's pitching style impossible today. So, crow hopping still is not legal under any organization that I am aware of but, umpires have willful blindness about it and the men's teams do not care.

Also, it wasn't until 2019 (I think) when ASA/USA changed the girl's pitching rule to allow 1 foot on the rubber. Now with allowing the leap inside of the pitch, for the first time since the early 1980's the pitching rules are the same for both genders. From '84-2019, the USA was the only country in the world that had different pitching rules for different genders. Every other country in the world used the ISF (WBSC) pitching rule, which is one reason the USA men's team began to suffer in international competition. Pitchers learning how to pitch with 1 foot on the rubber and jumping were illegal in International ball and to say its difficult to pitch one way, then be forced into the restrictive 2 feet on the rubber and stay on the ground was an understatement. I had never pitched with 2 feet on the rubber until I landed in New Zealand October of 1990. It was like re-learning how to pitch all over again.

Someone else asked about injuries. Yes, I had a knee surgery for Patellar tendonitis. And I experience my first issue with my back pain when I was 19, herniated disc in the lower left side. Since then the back pain would come and go until about 2005-ish, when it became something that wouldn't go away. I began getting shots in my back for pain control. And back then a doctor would send you home with a script for 180 Percocet per month. Now days I'm not even sure cancer patients get 180 painkillers! But to be fair, I really wasn't taking good care of myself. I wasn't in the gym each day, I wasn't stretching like I should have, etc. etc. I fully believe the knee problems occurred from pitching in NZ during the winters. Pitchers don't throw from a rubber there, there is a large hard rubber mat used in the pitcher's circle. The mats were used to keep field maintenance to a minimum. And at the time, NZ only had a hand full of actual softball fields despite being so dominant on the world stage. NZ is such a small country with small land mass that many games are played on all grass fields which are also used for soccer, cricket, rugby, etc. but to avoid pitcher tearing up holes in the ground, they used pitcher mats similar to what indoor facilities have. The constant pounding on those is harder than landing on the ground and patellar tendonitis was quite common. While I'm sure softball didn't help, I don't know if my back issues were from that or just genetics. Society is quick to think injuries happen because of bad mechanics and such but, sometimes it's just bad genetics.

I don't know how or why that coach would say leaping is bad mechanics and leads to injuries... where's the data to prove that? For ever Bill Hillhouse who had a knee surgery, theres 20 guys who didn't. So, where's the proof? What about hurdlers in track, is that leading to injuries too? Sounds like this is something the coach doesn't want to teach, which is their right. But, I'm not sure he/she is coming at this with facts, just opinion.

The article I posted earlier re: baseball pitchers explains what “can” happen. I know, I know - it’s not softball, but probably can be applied with similar reasoning.

The problem with females putting a lot of force on their joints (knees, ankles, etc) is different than men due to the effect of estrogen on the ligaments.

ETA: JFTR - I am not definitively saying we will see an increase in injuries from leaping, just pointing out that theoretically it could happen over time.

 

[RADcatcher]

I want to say the pitching rule change in men's happened about 1984 or 85.

Amazing how long this topic of conversation has been around.

Can remember playing travel ball pitchers leaping and some Crow hopping. Graduated high school in '83.
( may have been '83 and '84 when this happened)
they started cracking down on needing to drag that back foot.
Definitely remember pitchers having to make an adjustment to not getting called illegal.
This was still from 40 ft.
Remember when I went off to college definitely there were pitchers getting off the ground. The Crackdown on this did have some effect but more so on the crow hopping.


Also remember when pitchers could land outside of that designated 24-in Lane they need to stay in now.
That really had a lot of visual going,
Movement in more directions than now. Where now pitcher has to stay basically directly in front of the plate.
Talk about getting trajectory angles on batters, yep definitely changed pitching.

 

[RADcatcher]

The problem with females putting a lot of force on their joints (knees, ankles, etc) is different than men due to the effect of estrogen on the ligaments.

This is one of the reasons I keep mentioning healthy muscle strength and balance.

Here is an article that offers a little bit of feedback. It is talking about ACL but the gist of what they are saying applies to joint health. Using body appropriately.

Five Ways to Prevent Anterior Cruciate Ligament Injuries

NYU Langone sports health experts offer tips on how to prevent anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) tears, one of the most common knee injuries. Learn more.

nyulangone.org

 

[JOND]

For all the doomsayers out there it might help to keep in mind that the NCAA (and the organizations that use their rules) are the only places that had a rule requiring a pitcher to maintain ground contact with the push off foot. For years leaping has been legal in international play (WBSC World Cup, Olympics, etc). Here is a USA vs Japan World Cup game in which Japan uses 3 pitchers. The first two leap, the last one has a slight replant. Skip ahead in the video to see them all. If you want to get a good look at the footwork I recommend that you go to the YouTube settings tab and change the playback speed to the slowest setting (.25). Is there anything here that's going to ruin softball as we know it?

japan women's softball league - Google Search

horrible, textbook, absolutely ridiculous replants in those videos. pitchers should be ashamed tbh.

 

[JOND]

^^^^^ this right here is the top comment.

agree with this. the scofflaws are rewarded, those who played/trained by the rules left in the dust. how the world goes around, eh?

 

[JOND]

The offense has been given tremendous amount of more advantages in the game...
Don't see people up roaring over that!

what advantages? hot bats? yes, for sure, roll them back like BBCOR did for baseball. cheaper than moving the fences back 20ft. also, makes for more plays in the IF.

 

[RADcatcher]

what advantages? hot bats? yes, for sure, roll them back like BBCOR did for baseball. cheaper than moving the fences back 20ft. also, makes for more plays in the IF.

And changing the ball again much cheaper.